Is there a price to pay for Progress

Discussion in 'The Meadow' started by Hornet3d, Nov 16, 2018.

  1. Ken1171

    Ken1171 Distinguished Contributing Artist

    We can only hope for the best. Who knows what happens when AI gets so much better than humans that we can no longer understand their reasoning? The airplane division panels were a good example of that, where AI has provided a solution for the problem that appears to be beyond our human understanding. We know it passes the tests, but we have no clue HOW it does that. Like humans, AI can learn and improve itself over time, but in a much more accelerated pace. Human learning is linear, while AI learning is exponential, so we cannot compete in the long run. Given enough time, AI can achieve knowledge at a level that to us, humans, may sound God-like because it's beyond our capability to understand. That is, we wouldn't be capable of understanding even if they explained to us only using their simplest of words. That's a scary prospect, because humanity likes to think we are at the top of the food chain. With AI on the table, that becomes a fragile concept.
     
  2. mrsparky

    mrsparky Member

    "I think you touch on a wider point and that is those who are excluded or have other needs of the Internet."

    Not in that example, that was about company's falling for the hype that social media makes the company look, and work, better.
    Instead they have to spend more money dealing with those extra compaints. Cash that could better spent on services or infrastructure.
    Whereas if customers have to write/phone in, considerably less will do so.

    Though I do agree with your thoughts on what's known as "Digital Exclusion". Especially as a lot of government services are now online only. Such as self-employed tax filings or applications for the much hated "Universal Credit" (for non Brit's that's a catch all benefit for the unemployed or on a low income).

    Most government depts don't have publicly accessible machines or WI-FI. Instead if you don't have DSL at home, assuming you have a home, it's ether use friends, free wifi in cafes/pubs or the library.

    Which, on the odd occasion I've had to use the latter (usually to print) is often "interesting". While the staff are always great, porn surfers are not unusual, but shoulder surfers are an everyday thing. Usually to see how time you have left on a machine (they have timers) but sometimes just plain nosy people. So you can forget privacy.

    However the biggest thing is, that many forget, is that using a PC/web requires 2 core skills.
    #1, someone knows how to use a PC.
    #2 The ability to read.
     
  3. mrsparky

    mrsparky Member

    Who knows what happens when AI gets so much better than humans that we can no longer understand their reasoning?

    Google becomes a God ?
     
  4. Hornet3d

    Hornet3d Distinguished

    I understand where you are coming from and make some good points. Living in the UK I am well versed on Universal Credits and I am left wondering what bright spark decided that the application should be on line when it is targeted at those in society least likely to have a computer and in many instances the skills to use one. A mobile phone company I worked for some years ago did a similar thing in that they offered vouchers on the purchase of Pay As You Go phones and top ups. Snag was you had to register on line to claim the vouchers and many of the PAYG people where on tight incomes and had no access to the Internet. I tried for a while to help customers get registered until I was told in no uncertain terms by my manager to stop helping them out as my job was to sell phones, instead I was to point them to the local library, which was fine until they were overwhelmed and just sent the customers back to the phone shop. The end result was I used to book appointments with the same people to come back when the manager was not there. That meant I did not make my targets for phones sales but then I never did quite make target as I knew as soon as I did the would only increase them.

    My wife's parents can use a computer, but only just and I constantly have to 'repair' it or help them with passwords they either cannot remember or use the wrong one in the wrong place so I understand to some degree how difficult it must be for those who either live alone or have no one to watch over them,

    Of course all of this only adds to the already vicious circle in that without a place to live it is impossible to get a job and without a job you cannot afford a place to live. Large chunks of the population do not understand that there are many homeless that never imagined they would be and with very few exceptions so many could be.
     
  5. Ken1171

    Ken1171 Distinguished Contributing Artist

    Whatever happens, it's predicted to happen in about 15 to 20 years from now.
     
  6. Terre

    Terre Distinguished

    That is going to be a concern for many and probably sooner than some of them realize.
     
  7. Hornet3d

    Hornet3d Distinguished


    I am very well aware that I was extremely lucky to live through a time when final salary pension schemes were available and in a well paid job that provided one. For a vast chunk of the population such schemes have long since passed away. Added to that the fact that retirement age in the UK is now being pushed out further and further, in the last ten years the retirement age for my wife has been extended by six years. Thanks the the banking crash incomes have remained stagnant for many making difficult to live from day to day let along provide for the future. For many retiring now they own there own home and can release equity in their later years but with home ownership now dropping rapidly that option will be closed to many in the near future. There are some who have been unfortunate in that, despite paying into a company pension scheme, they now struggle on just the state pension as the scheme has gone bust owing mind blowing amounts of money. Even today the number struggling to survive on only the state pension is sizable and the number will only grow. For many they will have to hope they stay healthy well into their older years as they simply will not be able to afford to retire.

    With the changes AI will bring about and the damage we are doing to out planet (even if global warming is a hoax there is the global problem with plastic waste) it is hard to look towards a brighter future and that is from someone who has always been regarded by many around him as an optimist.
     
  8. Ken1171

    Ken1171 Distinguished Contributing Artist

    That's a very good point. I am quite convinced that "global warming" is a globalist scheme to let THEM tell us what we can or cannot do. Even the late Carl Sagan said it doesn't exist, when he used to defend it for most of his life. His ex-wife said that was the ONLY time in his life when Sagan recognized he was wrong about something, and it was very hard for him to admit it. He wouldn't say it lightly. In the meanwhile, plastic waste IS a reality, and very few are talking about. As opposed to "global warming", we can see it happening, so it cannot be denied.

    On the positive side, I think it was Motorola who created the first biodegradable plastic celphone. At least it seems like there is a solution to that.
     
  9. Terre

    Terre Distinguished

    Plastic waste, the condition of the Ganges River in India etc. There's a lot of things that need to change and get cleaned up.
    As far as global warming from what my husband has come across it looks like we are simply in another period like the Mideaval Warm Period. The temperatures stopped rising in the rural areas around 2000. Only the heat island cities are continuing to go up. If that's what's happening we are at the higher temps and they will stay this way for longer than any of us will live. Astronomers are saying that both periods were times uf increased solar activity so that looks like a quite reasonable explanation.
     
  10. Ken1171

    Ken1171 Distinguished Contributing Artist

    Indeed, planet temperatures seem to depend a lot on solar activity. It is said that the Sun was expected to have a rise in activity, but it has been "late" by at least a decade and nobody knows why. Some meteorologists claim that those hot and cold periods take tens of thousands of years to complete a cycle, while these "global warming" alarmists are trying to measure changes in only decades. They claim that measuring such short-term "spikes" have no meaning in the big picture, unless they just wanted to confuse the masses with random data. The 2 scientists who started this "global warming" alarm have already gone public, claiming their data was "incorrect", but I guess nobody cares anymore.
     
  11. Willowisp

    Willowisp Eager

    Of course, when scientists with years of education and a lifetime of research behind them in climate says that man-made global warming is a thing, we can safely ignore them, even if the vast majority of scientists says this. Because a random guy in a graphics forum knows better :rolleyes:
     
    tparo likes this.
  12. Ken1171

    Ken1171 Distinguished Contributing Artist

    Well, we had plenty of very wise scientists claiming for centuries that the Earth was flat, and also that the Sun orbited around Earth. Carl Sagan has fiercely defended "global warming" for decades, until satellite data became more available, and he then promptly discarded the possibility of mankind being able to affect climate at planetary scale based on the raw numbers read from space. As his ex-wife claimed, that was the ONLY time when Sagan had ever backed off on something he once defended, so I guess that counts for something. In addition, we have the UN backing and financing "global warming" activists, and on my book, that greatly discredits it, because the UN has become one of the most corrupted and discredited institutions we have nowadays.
     
  13. Willowisp

    Willowisp Eager

    Carl Sagan was not a climatologist, so his opinion is actually irrelevant. Or would you get medical advice from a geologist?
     
  14. Hornet3d

    Hornet3d Distinguished

    Whoo, I didn't mean to start a great debate which is why I put it as "even if global warming is a hoax" which left it open to both sides of the argument as I know there are some strong feelings on both sides. With hindsight and knowing that there are strong feelings I should have left the whole comment out. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I am having a bad day as the Hive Hub that controls electrics and heating has fallen over and after three hours on the phone all they can do is send me a new one...in three to four days. That is after purchasing only about three weeks ago and taking a day and two hours on the phone to get it working in the first place. To say I am not a happy bunny would be a massive understatement.

    Oh and either way, Cosmos was great.
     
  15. Terre

    Terre Distinguished

    Cosmos was great, Indeed. :)

    As for the rest, my sympathies and I hope the situation gets fixed sooner than anticipated.
     
  16. Ken1171

    Ken1171 Distinguished Contributing Artist

    I guess Carl Sagan was a lot of things: astronomer, cosmologist, astrophysicist, astrobiologist, author, professor, and science communicator in astronomy and natural sciences. Sounds like someone who would know good enough about planetary climate. His analysis on global climate changes came from directly studying the very first meteorological satellite data when it became available. We are talking about a scientist with more than 600 scientific papers and articles published, as well as authoring and co-authoring more than 20 books. He dedicated most of his life to planetary studies as an astronomy professor. It sounds strange to claim that his opinion on planetary climate would be irrelevant. There were few people more qualified than him who could say something about it, and know what they are talking about.
     
    Desertsilver likes this.
  17. Willowisp

    Willowisp Eager

    Carl Sagan was undoubtedly great in his field of expertise, but that field did not include the earth sciences. His field was primarily that outside of earth. Just because you know many things, don't mean you know everything. I would rather believe the words of countless climatologist over the words of one astronomer..

    Understanding climate involves a hell of a lot more than studying satellite data. That's like saying you understand biology by watching Animal Planet
     
  18. Hornet3d

    Hornet3d Distinguished

    I think I can now answer my own question, is there a price to pay for progress the answer is a resounding YES.

    Just put my Honda CRV to have some suspension parts replaced which were a advisory warning when the car was inspected about four k-months ago. While at the dealers they found the rear high level brake light no longer works. I the old days it would be the cost of a couple of pounds for a replacement bulb but this is a LED cluster so multiply that price by around 200%. That's not all, there is also a problem with the steering lock, years ago that would be the cost of a new lock but this is keyless ignition so the module alone is £500+ and that smarts. I have a warranty that may cover some of the cost (emphasis on the may, it is an insurance company after all). There sure is a price to pay for 'progress'.
     
  19. carmen indorato

    carmen indorato Extraordinary

    Politics and political correctness have taken over the globe. and unfortunately that means everything in our lives including, unfortunately the truth. You are either a believer or you are not. if you say nay to it you are stupid and despicable (according to H. Clinton and liberals all over the world as well as the globalist at the UN who should all be thrown out of NY or forced to pay rent and the high taxes there for the privilege of breaking our laws and breathing the warm dirty air there).
    Not to say the globe is NOT getting warmer but just that it seems so absurd to believe the conspiracy theory that it is all due to humans living on this planet. Climate has changed for ....well....since the BEGINNING and there have been many extrme climate change cycles and that has been proven......yeah scientifically!

    It wasn't humans who killed the dinosaurs and started mammal life on the planet and I doubt it will be humans who will burn out the sun or create the black hole that will swallow our galaxy up. Though I am sure we have had a hand in global pollution, the supposed resulting climate change is not as much as politicians are claiming so they can stick their greedy little hands into our pockets to increase taxes to control it all.
    Like I said Politics.
     
    Rowan54 and Terre like this.
  20. carmen indorato

    carmen indorato Extraordinary

    Yeah a long time ago i heard this:
    WE ARE ALL JUST ONE OR TWO PAYCHECKS AWAY FROM HOMELESSNESS.
    Welcome to our brave new world.
     
    Rowan54 likes this.

Share This Page