I *think* this might be an illegal download site

[eclark1894]

And that's why I don't understand why they pirate stuff. They're not charging anyone, so they're not getting paid are they? And even if they think they're entitled, do they think everyone is? If they can steal stuff that easy, why not just steal and keep quiet about it? This way, you're drawing attention to yourself, and probably from the wrong people.

 

[Glitterati3D]

All I have to say is the company that treats me, a paying customer, like a thief will not get anymore business from me. Go ahead, DRM the 3D products. I'll be done with Poser then.

 

[AfroditeOhki]

The more "protection" is placed trying to stop piracy, the more you annoy PAYING customers. You put something like DRM in content, you get false positives (you should know this Ken, you got a false positive malicious at Nerd's site and got blocked from it, right) and hurt actual content buyers, you hurt actual content buyers who work on offline computers, and you do NOTHING against pirates.

Zero. Seriously. Because - get this - you put this kind of protection when a program loads content, I give it a week TOPS for crackers to bring out a version of the software that ignores the protection.

Honestly. I'm born and raised in Brazil, and back when I was young piracy was the norm for us. You only come to learn why you should go legit when you reach your later teenage years. Nowadays it's not as bad, because - get this - Brazil used so much piracy because purchasing legit stuff was expensive, annoying, difficult, sometimes prohibitive. Now me and most of my brazilian friends collect purchased games on Steam that we'll likely not even ever actually play, because Steam makes it easy to get games. It offers good customer support. It makes things accessible for us. It accepts our payment methods. It has workarounds for our bad internet. We actually LIKE having things legit. Same goes for when Netflix came here, we now have a generation of young ones who don't know what torrent is and that's wild to think when you're a member of my generation - why should they expose themselves to possible viruses, hours of trying to find actual downloads of the movies they want, hours of slow downloads, when they can pay a small monthly fee and have video on demand?

Obstacles for illegal download/usage doesn't stop piracy. Making things actually more ACCESSIBLE does. And what you're proposing here would make things LESS accessible even for paying costumers.

 

[AfroditeOhki]

And that's why I don't understand why they pirate stuff. They're not charging anyone, so they're not getting paid are they? And even if they think they're entitled, do they think everyone is? If they can steal stuff that easy, why not just steal and keep quiet about it? This way, you're drawing attention to yourself, and probably from the wrong people.

Those sites usually work by giving you perks when you share new stuff there - you get priority to download other things, or faster downloads or whatever.

Sometimes it's just for the bragging rights and the people thanking them for sharing.

 

[MEC4D]

they make money on advertising and clicks .. they are for the traffic and nothing else.. and as always before you go to the download link you go through. advertising page

And that's why I don't understand why they pirate stuff. They're not charging anyone, so they're not getting paid are they? And even if they think they're entitled, do they think everyone is? If they can steal stuff that easy, why not just steal and keep quiet about it? This way, you're drawing attention to yourself, and probably from the wrong people.

 

[Ken1171]

The more "protection" is placed trying to stop piracy, the more you annoy PAYING customers.

That is an old argument, and I understand it because I used to claim it too. However, Python scripts was already a dead market for years when I came in, and according to one of its veteran vendors, it was due to piracy. So your argument is from the customer side, and the result was the extinction of an entire market because it wasn't big enough to survive piracy.

Like with most new features, there were kinks in the beginning, but those have been fixed, and I haven't heard of people having issues with it for a while now. The last couple were due to people forgetting their password, or because the embedded store credentials don't require entering your entire email address, but just the user name. It had nothing to do with false positives. There were none so far, and I would know because those are reported directly to me, and I am the only scripts vendor still active in the market. Everybody else gave up on this market because, according to PhilC, it was no longer viable due to piracy.

Therefore, selling unprotected scripts would be like doing the same thing all over again, while expecting different results. And you are right - anything can be hacked, but if you have a better idea to keep this viable to vendors, I am sure Rendo would love to hear it.

One way to handle this would be like Reallusion has been doing since iClone 7 came out - encrypt all contents, and they can only be decrypted when installing directly from the embedded store, or Reallusion's proprietary online installer, where neither methods involve downloading ZIPs. However, this only works for Reallusion because they own all program platforms they sell contents for, which is not the case with Rendo. They only own Poser, which is currently just a tiny portion of their customer base.

An even simpler solution would be for Rendo to only allow product installation directly from the embedded store, but that would exclude everybody still using Poser 11 or older. And since Poser contents are not encrypted, as soon as they are installed, they become vulnerable to piracy. Hence call home DRM is the only thing I could think of that would work in this scenario, and mind you, it is only used with Python scripts - and as an attempt to bring this market section back to life. So if you know of a better solution, let's hear it.

 

[AfroditeOhki]

Python scripts was a dead market IN POSER when you came in, Ken, because most of the big-shot scripters we had for Poser had either moved on to other projects or died.

So basically, there's you and PhilC who think this market died due to piracy. I see how you might think that, and it might be true, but honestly, from a content vendor's viewpoint - I doubt that's it, and instead it's that the ENTIRE Poser market fell into a coma years ago and it's just now starting to pick back up. While you think it might be because there's new protection for scripts, I can tell you for a fact that there's a small albeit existing surge of either new users or people who have returned to Poser, my store is seeing much more movement lately.

Meanwhile, every other week we get someone in the forums complaining about Poser's phone-home feature, because they either live somewhere with unreliable internet connection or they want to use Poser in a computer that is offline.

And if you think there's no piracy of Reallusion content, I can only tell you "oh sweet summer child". I googled "reallusion content download" and found the very main program cracked on the second page of the search.


(By the way, don't worry if you feel lonely in the Python Scripts section of the Rendo store - I've got a very dear friend coming into that market soon )

 

[Glitterati3D]

This is the craziest conversation I have ever seen.

Garbage and disinformation being spread like it's gospel.

I purchased EVERY Python product ever produced by Netherworks for Poser - legally. And never shared it nor disseminated it to anyone.

Netherworks left Poser, not because of script theft as you allege - he left for a better paying job that didn't depend on a brokerage that undercut their own vendors by conditioning customer to purchase only at sale prices, deeply discounted.

Semideu left Poser because RDNA sold his marketplace out from under him. Also another Python scripter I purchased from legally and religiously.

Dimension3D DIED, as did some of the DAZ scripters.

I still use these scripts daily and will continue to use them, along with Snarlygribbly's scripts in Poser 11. If Poser 12 can't make them work by updating them, then it's Poser 12 I won't be using, not these scripts.

If you want someone to blame for this, you need to look at the brokerages, not the customers. Turn your venom where it belongs.

 

[MEC4D]

(By the way, don't worry if you feel lonely in the Python Scripts section of the Rendo store - I've got a very dear friend coming into that market soon )

I am here just for the drama lol

 

[AfroditeOhki]

I am here just for the drama lol

No drama intended LMAO! Just a friend of mine who lost his job to the pandemic, was looking for something he could do to work at home, picked up python programming and I was like HEYYYY GUESS WHAT YOU COULD DO WITH THAT FOR SOME EXTRA CASH?

 

[Riccardo]

Most software today have a 'phone home' feature. It still gets cracked. It doesn't work. It only inconveniences legal users. Personally, I will not buy any software with this feature, which is why I mostly only use OS software.

Yes, I agree.
I understand and respect all the points of view expressed in this thread, but personally I don't buy DRM protected stuff of any kind. I expect all the software I - legally - own to be able to work offline, from the moment I buy it until I am alive and willing to use it, even if the company that made it and its servers do not exist anymore.

 

[MEC4D]

@Glitterati3D
Phil Cooke was doing often commission work for my projects long before and we know each other for a long time , he retired almost 10 years ago from scripts and focus on his woodwork and 3D stuff just as a hobby , he had his golden age in our community , piracy was before always will be , it did not killed his passion , he just moved on .. and what he said about piracy everyone say the same , it is what it is
he did better stuff than just script and I always adored his work , but piracy did not killed his 3D work .


@Ken1171 I did not saw yet any script or stuff by you to be pirated , but maybe when you continue to be good at that, you may have that privilege , what would be also a compliment on the other side , sadly very pricey one ..
but whatever .. you cannot change the world to be exactly the way you want it .

 

[eclark1894]

I found another illegal website .. this is just straight download website with full catalogs of each vendor .. this is ridiculous already submitted legal paper work ,for removing this domain from all search machines ..

Maybe you should contact or go after the ISP instead. At least, you'll probably get the site removed.

 

[Glitterati3D]

@Glitterati3D
Phil Cooke was doing often commission work for my projects long before and we know each other for a long time , he retired almost 10 years ago from scripts and focus on his woodwork and 3D stuff just as a hobby , he had his golden age in our community , piracy was before always will be , it did not killed his passion , he just moved on .. and what he said about piracy everyone say the same , it is what it is
he did better stuff than just script and I always adored his work , but piracy did not killed his 3D work .


@Ken1171 I did not saw yet any script or stuff by you to be pirated , but maybe when you continue to be good at that, you may have that privilege , what would be also a compliment on the other side , sadly very pricey one ..
but whatever .. you cannot change the world to be exactly the way you want it .

That was also what I understood about PhilC, but since I didn't have it first hand, I had no right to claim it.

And the bottom line is simple - don't accuse your customers of being thieves and expect them to say "here, take my money."

As for the Dawn/Dusk sales at Rendo, if anyone had asked privately, I would have been more than happy to share my vendor experiences there with them. La Femme sold like hotcakes, Dawn & Dusk, not at all. Sorry, that's just the facts. I sold ONE set of the Red Carpet Gown and Tux at Rendo.

 

[Ken1171]

So basically, there's you and PhilC who think this market died due to piracy.

Since Phil was one of the Poser Python scripts pioneers in this market, I would assume he knew what he was talking about. Of course, some vendors left for different reasons. Netherworks got a better job, and Dimension3D has passed away. But Rendo wouldn't go through the trouble of introducing DRM if what PhilC said wasn't true. Anyway, I didn't tell Rendo to add DRM to scripts - it was their own decision.

@Ken1171 I did not saw yet any script or stuff by you to be pirated

I saw my Scatter Tool for Poser 11 (no DRM) at 3 different places just in the last few weeks. Those are just the ones people told me about. That's usually how I find out. Every now and then people tell me even my gallery renders are being sold elsewhere, mostly at PhotoBucket. Why would anyone PAY for stuff I post publicly for free?

 

[MEC4D]

No drama intended LMAO! Just a friend of mine who lost his job to the pandemic, was looking for something he could do to work at home, picked up python programming and I was like HEYYYY GUESS WHAT YOU COULD DO WITH THAT FOR SOME EXTRA CASH?

Definitely, It is always great to have more people in one field , more interesting stuff on the plate , the market is big enough for that , my the best be blessed ..
I know no drama , just opinions ..

 

[Ken1171]

In my last interview with Renderosity, I was publicly inviting Python devs to join this market. I was just saying above that the introduction of DRM might encourage more Python devs to come join me on this. We NEED more people making scripts for Poser.

 

[AfroditeOhki]

You gain more using your time creating new stuff for the people who DO pay. As mentioned before, DRMs and phone-homes simply don't work.

 

[MEC4D]

Since Phil was one of the Poser Python scripts pioneers in this market, I would assume he knew what he was talking about. Of course, some vendors left for different reasons. Netherworks got a better job, and Dimension3D has passed away. But Rendo wouldn't go through the trouble of introducing DRM if what PhilC said wasn't true.

The things about Piracy going back before PhilC left .. he could not deal with all the things anymore , it was too much for him on some point as the enjoyment of creating turned into chaos, as running business and creating at the same time take some good nerves , it was over 10 years ago ....

I saw my Scatter Tool for Poser 11 (no DRM) at 3 different places just in the last few weeks. Those are just the ones people told me about. That's usually how I find out. Every now and then people tell me even my gallery renders are being sold elsewhere, mostly at PhotoBucket. Why would anyone PAY for stuff I post publicly for free?

that is sad to hear and a shame , my all stuff was sold once on second life , I could not win with the company , I was in Europe on this time the law was not as good for digital stuff like it is now.
Right now every month a new website pop up with all content from our communities Rendo, DAZ stuff my website stuff .. it is not random , someone big is doing it , it is well organized and I wonder by whom . All traces are going to Europe ..

 

[Willowisp]

One of the main problems with DRM is that it locks the content to one specific software. With scripts for Poser 12 I guess it would work out since they cannot be used for anything else anyway, but imagine locking Poser content to Poser 12 only.. It would lock out anyone using it in earlier versions of Poser, not to say in other software completely, like Daz Studio and Blender. That would be an extremely stupid move. And was one of the reasons the whole 'encryption only' scheme over at Daz didn't work in the long run, that content could not be installed to wherever you wanted, could not be 'fiddled' with to your own liking, and could not be used anywhere else.

And this is why I will never, ever get into RealIlusion/iClone - if I buy something, I want to do whatever I want with it (short of redistributing it, obviously). Walled gardens won't make you happy.