How to handle SmartProp parenting between multiple props?

[Ken1171]

I prefer using parenting to keep multiple parts together, even if Poser groups are specifically meant for that purpose, because of backwards compatibility. There is still too many people using Poser versions older than 7, probably because SMS decided from the beginning to make Poser way more expensive than most hobbyists can afford. It has been a while I suspected that SMS doesn't really know who the Poser public is - especially when they priced the Pro version at hundreds, almost competing with C4D.

 

[StudioMartillo]

C4D?
What's that?
You know PP11 is pretty inexpensive now. Like $69 most of the time.
I'm pretty close to abandoning Poser, except for posing the figures and exporting them to Lightwave.
It just hasn't kept up overall, and is hindered by so many 'legacy' missteps.
If Poser continues it should really just start all over.
Anyway, I'm just playing. All this stuff is just toys and I do whatever is fun.
I'm having a lot more fun with Lightwave 'cause there is so much more there.
Like Blender, it does almost everything.

 

[Miss B]

C4D?
What's that?

Cinema 4D is a 3D app by Maxon. I'm assuming expensive, because their Buy page gives you a phone number to call to get the purchase price.

C4D has been around a long time, but I've never tried it, so haven't a clue how it works. They do have a free trial version if you're interested in trying it out.

 

[Ken1171]

By the time SMSI acquired Poser 7 from eFrontier, the Pro version price tah was elevated to $600, which was very close to the entry-level version of Cinema4D. This was plain ridiculous, considering C4D is an all-in-one 3D modeling and animation application, while Poser can barely handle its flaky IK system and cannot model anything.

That has also coincided with the rise of DS 4, which was surpassing Poser in some aspects, and was given away for free, along with free CCCT (character content creation toolkit), which was previously sold for $400.

Since then, Poser 8, 9, 10 and 11 have added great new functionality to Poser, but ironically, SMS failed to fix the show-stopping issues with their content creation tools in the absurdly overpriced Pro version. This has motivated many CAs to switch to DS, and in most part, I believe it was due to SMS' series of bad business decision concerning Poser, along with their refusal to recognize DAZ as competition. Ignoring the competition doesn't make it go away. It has ended up with the entire US team fired.

With a whole new team, now moved to Europe, there is new blood working on the upcoming Poser 12. Their lack of experience with Poser makes me wonder what the next version will be. I don't know what to expect.

 

[Miss B]

With a whole new team, now moved to Europe, there is new blood working on the upcoming Poser 12. Their lack of experience with Poser makes me wonder what the next version will be. I don't know what to expect.

I've been cringing at the thought since the US team firing was announced.

 

[Ken1171]

I am sure the new team will be putting an extra effort on it, but it's their lack of experience with Poser that worries me. There is a big chance they don't know Poser good enough to do the rather bold changes it requires right now to stay competitive.

 

[Miss B]

I agree with you whole-heartedly. It remains to be seen how Poser 12 will turn out.

 

[Ken1171]

At least I already know they have been working on Poser 12. They have already added 3D motion paths as a new feature in Poser 11.1. It's a neat feature, but I would be working on more critical issues.

 

[quietrob]

Where exactly have you seen this? DAZ Studio has native support for NULLs, but Poser doesn't. That is, you can create a native Null primitive in DS, but not in Poser. At best, Poser can create "Groups" that won't show in renders, but they still have a cube primitive so we can select and position them , so they do have geometry. I think it's a similar thing with Nulls in DS - though they just display their origin point, and really have no geometry.

The more likely situation is what Satira has said above - the geometry does exist but it's embedded into the PP2, which is [unfortunately] what Poser does by default when we save props to the library.

As for your question, the main disadvantage of embedded geometry is that every time you add a prop to the library, it duplicates the space on disk. If the geometry were extracted, then all instances of the prop will reuse the same OBJ that is already the Geometries folder, making the props smaller. Another disadvantage is that if you need to change something in the geometry, you can't do that when it's embedded, making the process more difficult. If there are multiple copies of the prop in the library, fixing one will NOT fix the others because each has their own local copy of the geometry. Lastly, content stores will NOT accept props with embedded geometry.

Thank you for the answer. I can't remember which prop didn't come with an OBJ but I examine every runtime before installing it. I was surprised to find out what I've seen is that the geometry has been embedded (somehow) into the prop itself. The next time it happens I'll send you the link to the prop.

One time my father who is pushing 90 years old right now asked me a question about cut and paste. He asked me, "Where does it go after you cut it?"
"Pop, it's there. Trust me. You just have to know that it's there waiting for you to paste it."
"Yes, but where does it go?"
I showed him the file called Clipboard.exe, told him to how to use it and a second later the text file we cut appeared. Then and only then did he allow me to proceed to show him the basics.
Which brings me to this. I hate to ask such a basic question but like Pop I have to know.

What is the difference between a prop and an OBJ? Except for texturing, aren't they the same thing? Is it only the Poser Format it's using?

 

[Ken1171]

What is the difference between a prop and an OBJ? Except for texturing, aren't they the same thing? Is it only the Poser Format it's using?

We can't compare OBJs with props because OBJs are generic geometries used in Poser - they are not Poser files. Conversely, CR2's are figures and PP2's are props. I can explain the difference between figures and props, for those ARE indeed Poser files.

You can think of OBJs as "raw" 3D models. It contains all vertex, edge, and face information about the model, as well as the many groups that Poser support, such as MAT zones and body groups.

When you load an OBJ into Poser, it automatically becomes a prop (because it has no bones and rigging), and perhaps that's where the confusion could come from. It only becomes a figure after bones and weight maps are added in the Fitting or Setup Rooms. Basically the difference between props and figures is that - one has bones and the other doesn't. Any geometries without bones in Poser is considered a "prop".

A good example in Poser is hair. It may or may not contain bones with weight maps. If it does, it's a figure hair. If it doesn't, it's a prop hair. What they all have in common is that both are linked to a geometry file - the OBJ.

 

[quietrob]

Ah So! The grasshopper nods his head in understanding. Thanks Ken. While I did know the difference between a prop and figure (Though I've seen props that act as figures with doors that open and close) the difference between an OBJ is much more subtle. Especially confusing when you add that Poser considers a .hr file to be a prop while another hair model is considered a CR2. Models like Dione Hair actually have BOTH versions available upon purchase.

 

[Ken1171]

I personally prefer prop hair, for it's easier to use with other figures. Conversely, figure hair is better for long hair that goes over the shoulders and chest, for you have more control with bones than we have with morphs. In my "Universal Anime Head", I have included a PDF tutorial that explains (among other things) how to use either prop or figure hair with any figure in Poser or DS. Any hair can be used with any figure, no matter if it's prop or figure. No external tools or conversions are needed.

As for props and OBJs, you can think of it as: it's a prop the moment an OBJ is loaded into Poser or DS. But the OBJ itself is not a prop, because it's not a Poser/DS file. It's used in almost all other 3D applications for the same purpose - to store geometry information.

 

[StudioMartillo]

Hopefully, if won't hurt to know exactly what an OBJ file is:
OBJ File Format
And where it came from:
Wavefront_Technologies
Pretty dated stuff really.

 

[StudioMartillo]

Now it seems there is a new interchange standard evolving.
Autodesk FBX
Wouldn't it be nice if graphics software companies would get it together on this.

 

[Faery_Light]

I want to fix my carousel pole so the base parents to the floor of the carousel, and parent the other pieces to the pole, with the pole parented to the base.
But now if I want to parent the horse to the pole, can it be done without the mane, tail and fetlocks exploding?

 

[Ken1171]

Now it seems there is a new interchange standard evolving.
Autodesk FBX
Wouldn't it be nice if graphics software companies would get it together on this.

FBX sounds great on paper, but there are too many "versions" that create incompatibilities.

But now if I want to parent the horse to the pole, can it be done without the mane, tail and fetlocks exploding?

I have noticed that sometimes parenting makes things explode in figures. I haven't figured this out yet.