Copyright infringement?

[Hornet3d]

Another problem is that I have models from wwwaaaayyyy back when I first started Poser and I have no frickin' idea who made them, let alone where exactly I got them. So I can't use them anymore because I can't give proper credit? I have no idea who originally wrote Cinderella, but I'll bet you a quarter it wasn't Walt Disney.

I doubt you are alone, I have a database I keep that tracks the where, when and who but even then I bet there are some I would struggle to give proper credit for.

 

[Hornet3d]

I think the issue the OP was considering, and I would tend to agree, is the images/renders in question are not finished pieces. What they are is just items from a 3D source rendered with vague lighting against a single color background intended to be cut and pasted and used in other images. In this aspect it very much does undersell the original content creator as it will allow many to benefit from their 3D asset in 2D images without owning or purchasing it. It has been my experience, and it is my personal belief (in many ways backed by what I have learned and know from past experience over the decades) that this is a possible infringement and could violate the EULA.

If these were part of a complex image, it would be a different case.

Have I rendered content in such a way? Yes, for my own use in composite work and images, using content I bought and paid for. Doing so is acceptable, and using such items in a final image is also fine. I do feel that offering such clip art made from 3D sources is an IP infringement, unless the renders are radically altered, modified, and post processed in some way making them vastly different from the bare 3D source used.

That was what I was trying to say, but you have described it so much better than I did.....or could.

 

[Daio]

Another problem is that I have models from wwwaaaayyyy back when I first started Poser and I have no frickin' idea who made them, let alone where exactly I got them. So I can't use them anymore because I can't give proper credit? I have no idea who originally wrote Cinderella, but I'll bet you a quarter it wasn't Walt Disney.

I have models, etc. going back to 1998 some of which I still use but do I remember where I got all of them? Nope.

 

[Miss B]

I doubt you are alone, I have a database I keep that tracks the where, when and who but even then I bet there are some I would struggle to give proper credit for.

I use spreadsheets for all my 3D purchases from each of the stores I shop at, but I also make a point of saving the main promo image of each, giving the name of the product AND the creator(s) name(s).

 

[Hornet3d]

I use spreadsheets for all my 3D purchases from each of the stores I shop at, but I also make a point of saving the main promo image of each, giving the name of the product AND the creator(s) name(s).

I like the tip of keeping a promo image along with the rest of the information. The only reason I have a database was it was on sale at Daz, sadly it has not been available for many years now.

 

[Darryl]

@Hornet3d I've come to realize that there are a multitude of applications for Poser/Daz renders beyond the typical ones we see on these forums. All are legit as long as they don't violate the EULA. I'm not sure if the users of the clip art in question would want to buy Poser, various assets, and learn the program just to put a flower graphic on an invite or business card. deviantArt being an artists hangout, it's not unreasonable to assume the downloaders would be using it in creative ways by combining, manipulating or adding text to a final artwork. Considering the images are offered for free (and conveniently ignoring the artists TOU) the images could be considered as a service to the dA community.

I think the issue the OP was considering, and I would tend to agree, is the images/renders in question are not finished pieces. What they are is just items from a 3D source rendered with vague lighting against a single color background intended to be cut and pasted and used in other images. In this aspect it very much does undersell the original content creator as it will allow many to benefit from their 3D asset in 2D images without owning or purchasing it. It has been my experience, and it is my personal belief (in many ways backed by what I have learned and know from past experience over the decades) that this is a possible infringement and could violate the EULA.

If these were part of a complex image, it would be a different case.

Have I rendered content in such a way? Yes, for my own use in composite work and images, using content I bought and paid for. Doing so is acceptable, and using such items in a final image is also fine. I do feel that offering such clip art made from 3D sources is an IP infringement, unless the renders are radically altered, modified, and post processed in some way making them vastly different from the bare 3D source used.

I appreciate your comments and perspective. Something to think about.

 

[Daio]

I use spreadsheets for all my 3D purchases from each of the stores I shop at, but I also make a point of saving the main promo image of each, giving the name of the product AND the creator(s) name(s).

I admire your organization.

 

[Pendraia]

I would have the same problem with providing credits on some older items. More recently when I download I download the file to a folder that lists where I got it. For example the stuff from Hivewire goes into a Hivewire, rendo to renderosity and individuals are listed also. I even have a shareCG folder. Older stuff though would be a nightmare.

It's one of the reasons I don't download freebies that require credit because I would be scared that I would forget.

@Earl, the Cinderella story has many versions all over the world. Cinderella - Wikipedia

The version that was disneyfied is iirc the Charles Perrault version...

 

[Miss B]

I admire your organization.

Thanks Daio. I started saving the Promos almost immediately, because I never could remember exactly what something was just by the download file's name, and eventually it became easier to find if I have something by a certain vendor, simply because all products by the same vendor will alphabetically be together. Once a folder becomes really busy, it becomes hard to go through them all to find them. I found that out when saving a product file, that usually starts with a SKU number, so unless I happen to know the SKU number, I'll have a damned hard time finding it.

The spreadsheets started some time later, when I was still able to view all the products on one page in one of the stores (don't recall which), so I decided to either save the HTML page, or just highlighting and copying the info on the page, and setting it up in a spreadsheet. I decided on the latter, as I could have it all on one never ending page, whereas the HTML pages would eventually add up to a cumbersome amount, and wouldn't be that easily searchable.

 

[eclark1894]

I would have the same problem with providing credits on some older items. More recently when I download I download the file to a folder that lists where I got it. For example the stuff from Hivewire goes into a Hivewire, rendo to renderosity and individuals are listed also. I even have a shareCG folder. Older stuff though would be a nightmare.

It's one of the reasons I don't download freebies that require credit because I would be scared that I would forget.

@Earl, the Cinderella story has many versions all over the world. Cinderella - Wikipedia

The version that was disneyfied is iirc the Charles Perrault version...

Thank you Pen, but yes, I did know that. Well, not the Perrault stuff.
Truth is, that Disney gets most of his story ideas from public domain, then puts their own little spin on it, like Alice's dress and apron in Alice in Wonderland, then threatens to sue the heck out of anyone who copies even the smallest detail.

 

[Pendraia]

I know...bugs the crap out of me, that said they do very good work with their movies and have some very clever modelers employed. I enjoyed watching them on the ZBrush summit last year.

 

[Lyrra Madril]

you should start a thread asking about unattributed items .... something like "Who made this?" and a picture of the thing and as much info about it as you have. Its possible that someone out there know about it.

I use PZDB to find all my content. It does allow you to add custom meta data tags to any file, which I mainly use to tag things with era / style keywords.

The Alice hairband, dress and apron come from the illustrations done by Tenniel for the book actually and are what a nice young lady would wear around the house.

LM

 

[ibr_remote]

Well from the flat out standards of copyright .. going by the standard EULA at most of the sites, any render created using content is the creators to do what they like with it. The actual 3d models and textures are non distributable EXCEPT if the distributor has a license to do so (the gaming licenses at DAZ, the extended license at Rendo) and in such cases are specifically meant to be distributed as part of something like a videogame.

So technically these people aren't doing anything illegal, just kind of morally dubious (the plain load and render images). An artist with an iota of pride in their work would at least adjust the shaders, maybe make an interesting composition, using something better than the murky default lighting. It is obvious to me at least that most of these are rendered in DS with unaltered poser shaders so they come out plasticcky and with no bump maps. It takes about 10 seconds to fix that, if you know how. LM

I tend to agree with Lyrra Madril's interpretation of the issue. But I do also see the point made by others about how offering the simple renders for downstream compositing, can discourage purchase of the source product. I don't think there will be much loss per se, since the user is limited to using just the one picture on offer. And for a personal non-commercial artwork inside DeviantArt, well, how much damage can it cause to the source commercial product. The user would not have been a buyer in contention in the first place. Any respectable artist who is creating for a commercial quality result would likely purchase the original product.

 

[Lyrra Madril]

I've seen my own content offered as (not very good) clipart. So I of course went and rendered them myself with better lighting, bumpmaps and everything and posted them and put the link in the original posters comment section. So there. *lol* Petty I know, but satisfying. So they of course removed theirs, and I removed mine and all is at peace.

(The set in question was one that I sold to DAZ as a freebie years ago. I made my money off it already, so sales now mean nothing. Magic Containers, you probably have it ( Magic Containers | 3D Models and 3D Software by Daz 3D ). They look 100% better in Poser where they were made. The DS versions that DAZ made have terrible surfacing.)

Creators could probably make an end run around this sort of product by making their own similar clipart package and selling it themselves.

LM

 

[Satira Capriccio]

Regarding purchasing the original product:

If they know there is an original product. It doesn't look like most people realize these are "just" renders of a product created by someone else. There is nothing artistic or creative in what he did, nor did he contribute any work of his own. He simply loaded an object in Poser, rendered it with basic lighting, and called it his ... then demanded credit for "his" work.

 

[Hornet3d]

Regarding purchasing the original product:

If they know there is an original product. It doesn't look like most people realize these are "just" renders of a product created by someone else. There is nothing artistic or creative in what he did, nor did he contribute any work of his own. He simply loaded an object in Poser, rendered it with basic lighting, and called it his ... then demanded credit for "his" work.

Which makes any transgression potentially two fold, firstly the person in question is morally defrauding the original artist of credit for their work and secondly they are taking advantage of the ignorance of those who do not have a background in computer art. The only reason I can see for this is to boost their own ego unless there is another agenda I just don't see.

 

[Riccardo]

After some years of just downloading the 3D models' files and putting them all toghether in the cauldron, I realized that I lost control of what I have available for my runtimes, what a product actually looks like and so on.
So, I decided to rebuild all my products' backup...
It was definitely a long and tiring job, but I already enjoyed the results and I'm happy I did it.
Maybe it can be of inspiration to someone, so here is the way I am following now:
I have folders for the various stores (DAZ, HIVEWIRE, RENDO...).
Inside these folders, for those I have a lot of items in, I tried to recreate a hierarchy similar to that of the separate runtimes I created to use in my programs (various versions of DS, Carrara and Poser).
So I have folders like: animals, chars_base, chars_injectable, vehicles, wearables... and so on.
Inside these, for each product I create a folder named after the product.
Inside the folder I put the model files and a PDF generated from the online store page of the product. If the text of the PDF is not selectable (as it happens to me for Daz stuff) I also copy the text from the original HTML and paste in a "description.txt" file.
Optionally, I sometimes save here some interesting promo images and an additional "info.txt" file with my annotations.
When a product requires another one to work, its folder goes inside the required product's one.
When I install a product, I add a "installed.txt" file in it.
This way, I can count the directories (excluding the categories ones) to know how many products I have; and the installed.txt files tell me whether something is installed or not.
I know it can be a hard work, but for me is was worth doing it... ;-)

 

[Pendraia]

That's similar to what I do but you go another step further with your folders containing promos.

 

[Miss B]

I also use separate folders for each of the stores, though I don't separate the type of products, such as characters, props, environment/scenery, etc. I do, however, separate 2D products (brushes, backgrounds, etc.) from my 3D products (for DS, Poser, etc.) I like having my promos as well, so I can refresh my memory as to what each thing is.

Sounds like your really got a good handle on organization, that's for sure.

 

[tparo]

Thank you Pen, but yes, I did know that. Well, not the Perrault stuff.
Truth is, that Disney gets most of his story ideas from public domain, then puts their own little spin on it, like Alice's dress and apron in Alice in Wonderland, then threatens to sue the heck out of anyone who copies even the smallest detail.

Shakespeare also took his stories from other sources, all but one - the Tempest, at times he even took whole passages of text and used it, which he wouldn't get away with today. Disney can't own the stories and they have been done in other forms numerous times they do own their depiction of the characters though.