Poser clones for clothing conversions

[Ken1171]

I was hoping someone could explain to me how clones could help clothing conversions between figures in Poser. For example, I have created a body morph that reshapes Dawn to AnimeDoll, as means to help clothing conversions - but I don't know how this could help with the conversion process. How would this work?

To me it makes sense if I made a morph to reshape the source figure (AnimeDoll) to Dawn instead, for then I could use that to reshape the AD clothing to Dawn by simply copying the morph to the clothing. How would it work if Dawn was reshaped to AnimeDoll instead? Does that help at all?

The idea was to use AD clothing in Dawn while morphed to the AD shape.

 

[Ken1171]

Here is an example where I have manually converted the AD clothing to fit Dawn, and then injected my AD morph for DawnSE to shape the clothing back to how it was in AD. It was a lot of work to convert the clothing, and I was wondering if the AD morph in Dawn could somehow make the conversion easier. like an AD clone for Dawn?

 

[Ken1171]

Judging by the lack of replies, I assume this is not something people have tried before. For example, if I made a morph that reshaped DawnSE into Vicky4, would that make it easier to convert V4 clothing to Dawn? That's the kind of thing I would like to know.

 

[Miss B]

I would say not too many Poser folks have tried. I know I've been curious since discovering DS users have that option.

 

[Ken1171]

Exactly, I only became interested in this after dealing with clones in DS. I am sure the same principles apply in Poser as well, where the concept of clones is quite alien and never discussed. Anything that helps refitting clothes in Poser interests me.

 

[Miss B]

Me as well, as I have a huge runtime of clothes for V4 I could use on other figures, such as Dawn.

 

[Bwldrd]

Have you tried Copy Morphs, AD morph from Dawn to the clothing then setting it at -1 in the clothing to see if it forms to dawn that way? I did that with some things before and it worked out pretty well. Though I used Dimension3D's 'Morphing clothes' as it was before poser had the Copy morphs function I believe. (Did it with some clothing for Hiro (with an A3 morph) I wanted on A3, and something for M4 (with a V4 Morph) to V4, though don't remember what.)

 

[Ken1171]

Have you tried Copy Morphs, AD morph from Dawn to the clothing then setting it at -1 in the clothing to see if it forms to dawn that way? I did that with some things before and it worked out pretty well. Though I used Dimension3D's 'Morphing clothes' as it was before poser had the Copy morphs function I believe. (Did it with some clothing for Hiro (with an A3 morph) I wanted on A3, and something for M4 (with a V4 Morph) to V4, though don't remember what.)

No, I haven't, but that sounds like something that could work. The AD morph in Dawn has the necessary deltas that define the shape difference between then two figures. If I apply it in reverse, as you suggest, that could reshape it to Dawn. I will give it a try and find out. Thanks for the suggestion! I hope it works.

 

[Miss B]

AD morph? That's a new one on me. I've never heard reference to it before. Where do you find that?

 

[Ken1171]

AD morph? That's a new one on me. I've never heard reference to it before. Where do you find that?

It's new indeed, I made it last week. Picture above shows it with Dawn and AnimeDoll side by side.

 

[Miss B]

Ohhhh, I see. You made a morph of the character you're transferring the clothes from, to use with the character you want to transfer the clothes to. Niiiice. I hadn't thought of that. I'll have to try that with Dawn and one of your Body Type morphs and see. I can't imagine it wouldn't work as I copy morphs to clothing from Dawn all the time. This time it'll just be from one character to another. Verrrrry interesting indeed. ~nods~

 

[Ken1171]

It's actually from one figure to another. I usually refer to "character" as a particular figure morph, like Elisa for Dawn, or Rodrigo for Dusk. In this case, I made a morph to make Dawn look like AnimeDoll, which is an independent Poser figure made by MayaX. The objective was to make it [somehow] easier to convert clothing between these figures. @Bwldrd made a suggestion above that might work, which involves using the reversed deltas from my AD morph on Dawn to convert the AD clothing shape into Dawn shape. I have to try that. It might work.

 

[Miss B]

OK, so if I'm understanding you correctly, I would have to make a morph of V4 (for instance) to make Dawn look like her, and I'm assuming you're only talking about the body, and not necessarily the head for the clothing fits.

 

[Ken1171]

Yes, that's the idea. Once we have the morph on Dawn, we can copy it to the clothing and apply it in reverse ("-1.0"), which should reshape it to Dawn's form. The morph doesn't need the head.

 

[Ken1171]

Ok, I have done some experiments with this, and got some results. This is the AnimeDoll catsuit refit to Dawn in 2 different ways.

On the right I have applied the AD morph to Dawn, which makes her the same shape as the outfit. I only had to repose the outfit to match the default pose from Dawn, and use the Morphing Tool to fine tune the fitting, which wasn't much work, since in this case, Dawn was morphed into the AnimeDoll shape. I then used the Fitting Room to convert the outfit to Dawn while in the AnimeDoll shape. It doesn't work with the default Dawn shape. It only fits Dawn while the AD morph is applied, but the catsuit is very clean and free of distortion.

On the left I have applied the AD shape into the catsuit using "-1.0", which reverts the AD shape back into Dawn shape. However, the result was quite distorted, way more than I expected, and it didn't match Dawn in some large areas. I had to spend the next hour cleaning up the mess with the Morphing Tool, and it was quite some work.

I guess this didn't work as I expected. Perhaps Poser is really bad with this kind of thing, and there is no easy way. The major problem with Poser is that it introduces a lot of distortion when projecting weight maps and morphs, so there is always a lot of cleaning up afterwards. The best [and easiest] results came from converting the AD outfit while Dawn was morphed in to AD shape (right side on above pic), but that is not very useful, since the outfit will only fit when the AD morph is applied to Dawn.

In theory, the idea of reverting the AD morph on the clothing sounded like a good idea, but the morph projection in Poser is of very poor quality. Perhaps I would have more luck trying this in DS, where morph projections yield much cleaner results. I will give that a try and see if reverting the morph on clothing can get what I want in DS.

 

[Me195]

Ok, I have done some experiments with this, and got some results. This is the AnimeDoll catsuit refit to Dawn in 2 different ways.

View attachment 52550

On the right I have applied the AD morph to Dawn, which makes her the same shape as the outfit. I only had to repose the outfit to match the default pose from Dawn, and use the Morphing Tool to fine tune the fitting, which wasn't much work, since in this case, Dawn was morphed into the AnimeDoll shape. I then used the Fitting Room to convert the outfit to Dawn while in the AnimeDoll shape. It doesn't work with the default Dawn shape. It only fits Dawn while the AD morph is applied, but the catsuit is very clean and free of distortion.

On the left I have applied the AD shape into the catsuit using "-1.0", which reverts the AD shape back into Dawn shape. However, the result was quite distorted, way more than I expected, and it didn't match Dawn in some large areas. I had to spend the next hour cleaning up the mess with the Morphing Tool, and it was quite some work.

I guess this didn't work as I expected. Perhaps Poser is really bad with this kind of thing, and there is no easy way. The major problem with Poser is that it introduces a lot of distortion when projecting weight maps and morphs, so there is always a lot of cleaning up afterwards. The best [and easiest] results came from converting the AD outfit while Dawn was morphed in to AD shape (right side on above pic), but that is not very useful, since the outfit will only fit when the AD morph is applied to Dawn.

In theory, the idea of reverting the AD morph on the clothing sounded like a good idea, but the morph projection in Poser is of very poor quality. Perhaps I would have more luck trying this in DS, where morph projections yield much cleaner results. I will give that a try and see if reverting the morph on clothing can get what I want in DS.

That's pretty creative and ambitious. I have only seen this done the other way around. For example getting clothing converted from V4 to Project evolution. Project evolution comes with a morph that turns V4 into the basic shape of Project Evolution. Then you copy the Basic Project Evolution shape morph from V4 to her clothing. Then you load project evolution base figure into the scene, and use the fitting room to make it into a conforming figure for Project Evolution. More often than not I have found that no adjustments were needed. Of course that method doesn't seem to work well at all for gloves or masks. Perhaps you could try making a Dawn morph for AD, copy it to AD's clothing, and use that as you starting point for the fitting room for Dawn.

The only other method for quick refit I've seen in poser is FVerbass's Prefitter. It's a bodysuit which includes the head made in Marvelous Designer for V4. Because you can swap clothing made in Marvelous Designer between figures very easily, FVerbass was able to make morphs to transform the Prefitter bodysuit into several different figures. For example if you want to convert clothing from V4 to Dawn you load the Prefitter bodysuit into the scene in poser. Conform V4's clothing to the Prefitter bodysuit. Next copy the V4 to Dawn morphs from the Prefitter bodysuit to V4's clothing. There are also some adjustment morphs you can copy from the Prefitter bodysuit to V4's clothing. Now you can load Dawn into the scene and use the fitting room to make conforming clothing for Dawn out of V4's morphed clothing. Although I get varying results form this method that seems to depend on the quality of the clothing's mesh. I'm not sure how practical this method would be for what you are trying to do, but I mentioned it incase it might give you inspiration for a solution.

 

[Ken1171]

I have indeed tried a number of refitting methods from 3rd party, where results vary as wildly as it was with this method. I actually made the AD morph for Dawn just to add a new style to the list. Only afterwards I thought this morph, when applied in reverse, could be used to refit AD clothing to Dawn, only to find out that the vertex projections in Poser are too low quality to be used for that purpose. However, DS has way better projections, so it may still work there.

I have considered what you said about creating the clone morph on the other figure instead, but AnimeDoll is rather low poly, so she wouldn't be such a great mesh for that. Either ways, the problem with this method is the poor vertex projections we get from Poser, so in the end, it may not make much of a difference on which figure we make the clone morph.

I will try making the projection in DS to see I can get a cleaner result.

 

[3dOutlaw]

Yea, I would try DS as a free refit tool. You can convert characters to WM from older rigging, and then get close (that's how I made the original Dawn clone a long time ago), and use the Smoothing modifier and now Dforce to get it just right. Save it out as an OBJ, and then I assume there is a way to import an OBJ morph into Poser...

Was just passing by to see if anyone replied to my iray/fallen tree question, and saw this. Leaving again! The old post and run, lol

 

[Ken1171]

Ok, I have tried doing the reverse morph in DS, and the results weren't much better. Lots of distortions. The idea was good on paper, but it doesn't work so well in practice. I will try other means to see how it goes.

 

[Pendraia]

When you say you've tried to do it in DS are you talking about loading the anime doll shape as a clone to use in Autofit?

If so there a couple of things to consider with using autofit to got optimal results. First thing is the clone which from what I've read you already have the shape and possibly have loaded it into DS as a morph and made a clone.

The second thing that has an input into the results of autofit is the templates available. The official templates from Hivewire are rather limited and only do short skirts.

The better quality the templates the better the result in autofit in terms of the quality of rigging amongst other things.

Personally I often find the automated process doesn't give the results I want. So what I've been doing to convert clothing in DS recently is the following process.

I load the item, change the resolution to base and then send Dawn and the item to Zbrush. I then fit the item to dawn leaving autofit on default of none for the clone and sometimes even none for the template. I'm still experimenting with the second setting so it will sometimes be the clean gown template from Dvl_Lvd's template set. I then send it back from Zbrush once altered and instead of using morph I update the base mesh.

What I'm still not sure of and still researching is whether if you leave the template blank the original rigging remains or if it just bases it off the character you're fitting it to. I have had some interesting results where leaving both blank where it seems to work quite nicely but for the most part I'm often using dforce also. I really need to play with conforming side of things just not had chance.

The reality is that the best result if from a manual conversion. That said if the figures are very similar it is possible to get quite good results from Autofit for some items. The bigger the difference in the character size and shape the more issues you will have.