Art 3d Philosophy and History

[Carey]

One of the big problems 3D artists have is that they never worked with blue prints, have never built a house or a castle, have never designed or built furniture. I run into it all the time using other peoples work in my renders. There are different rules and units of measurement to all of the above... Now I am not saying any thing to pick on people that build things in 3D, I am asking 3D creators in general to do their research. It has never been easier to do. The world has a great heritage of information on standards for building everything from the golden gate bridge to a little old coffee table, and it's all on line...

Why make such a effort? Besides the fact your idea may very well some day to be the basis for a real life product, the really need to consider that your work is going to be available to the world for sale or download long after we have all gone to grave... It speaks for you, it speaks about you, it speaks about our generation.. really, it can literally make you immortal or a laughing stock...

Now I know not everyone sets out to redesign the whole world every time they do a render, but think what would happen if we did a render or drew up a new product...

Most journeymen programs these days require a 7 year interment, in the old days artists spent as much as forty years learning their trade from a master. Now days we can almost become an expert in a very short time indeed and it is mostly all at our finger tips....

 

[McGyver]

True... My can of Zombie Chow will speak for me long after I'm gone... Provided ShareCG and or a free internet is still around...
And as of late that last one is looking kinda iffy...
While I do agree with you to some extent about getting stuff accurate... That really only applies in certain cases...
If you are modeling a 747, a fire engine, the Brooklyn bridge, or a pair of sneakers... They should reflect the real world equivalent to a certain degree...
But...
Should it be an engineering level model?
Probably not... Unless the model maker is making a statement about their craft, they really love the subject item or they are looking to charge way more money.
Should their be an minimum acceptable level of detail?
Of course... It should convey the important details that one identifies with that item... It should also not have impossible details that are just catastrophically wrong...
Stuff that I've seen that has irked me silly...
-Wheel sets from an 1800s boxcar on a modern passenger train.
-A jumbo jet with landing gear that wouldn't support a Cessna.
-An absolutely and completely physics defying treehouse.
-No bloody hinges on doors.... Gaaaaah.
-Stairways that magically hang in space.
-A different passenger jet (with interior) with no friggin' door... None... I'm not implying they didn't make one that opens... They forgot it... Completely... How do you do that?
- A real wheel drive carbureted engine with 70s style air filter in a front wheel drive modern car (fuel injected engines look totally different and the engine should be sideways).
- A plane with landing gear, but the landing gear doors don't open... They sprout through the doors I guess?
- Rotating parts that merge though other parts in an extremely avoidable way.
- Magical boobie wraps that wouldn't stay in place with industrial grade acrylic double stick tape and a couple of drywall screws.
- Missile pylons and bomb racks that would snag the ordinance if were released or fired (and its unmistakably visually obvious).
- Non fantasy firearms with stupid things like a silencer on a revolver.
There are lots of others, but in a couple of instances I've seen other people notice it too (like the airplane with no way of entering) and mention it, and then other people will defend the mistake...
I get that one may like someone's work, but forgetting to add a door is kinda big and if you are not being mean and just pointing out its missing, people shouldn't get sensitive or defend it.
Really wrong details can totally devalue a model... If someone is unaware, it might not be a big deal if it's just for personal use...
But say someone uses that model in a commercial render for a book cover and they invest a lot of time getting the image right and then the client asks why is the character holding a revolver with a silencer? Or is that an old 70s engine in a 2015 sports car?
Sadly... It's almost politically incorrect to point out even huge errors or even mention or ask about them.
But it is what it is...
So, yeah... In that regard, even basic reference materials like pulling a couple of images from Google Images, might have made a huge difference...
But 80% of the people out there don't notice stuff or really care.
I'm an Industrial (prototype) Model Maker so details are big to me... If someone asks me to make a stand for a keyboard, I don't just follow their plans blindly... I'll go to a store and check out keyboard stands to see how they work and what they need to do.
Aside from a few military, aerospace and medical items, I always try to familiarize myself with the subject I making instead of blindly relying on the prints to be correct.
I hate doing design study models with no working parts and few if any details... Which sadly, thanks to 3D printing is all I ever seem to be making anymore...
But most people who do what I do are not like that, they follow the prints and if they are wrong they make it wrong and if the client never notices they don't care, it's on to the next project...
I don't like doing things that way, but most people are okay with it.
But... With 3D models it's totally different...
I'm not a PA, and most of the models I've made I'll probably never finish because they are too damned complicated to turn into DAZ or Poser models... I get lost in details... And that's a problem... Sometimes you have to just fudge a detail, or except that a standard bathtub won't fit in the tenement apartment bathroom, stop trying to make the hydraulic arm work right and hide the hinges and hydraulics and imply there is a complicated futuristic mechanism moving the cargo bay doors...
If I could get myself to do that, there would be a couple of really cool models in my freebie gallery.
So I can understand why some people, especially people who are trying to make a living have to trim some details or fudge stuff... It's complicated and you can't spend forever on a project that you are trying to make a few bucks on.
As long as you get it mostly right I think that's important in this market.
Forget doors, stairs, handrails or mess up important stuff... Well, that's just kinda sloppy and it reflects badly on someone if they leave it that way.
But in the end... It's their call... Their products... And up to the buyer to decide if it's what they want for the price they are willing to pay.

I don't really know what my point was anymore.

Something about a can of Zombie Chow?

I forget...

 

[Satira Capriccio]

I used invisible hinges on the Nouvelle Aube Studio doors!

 

[Carey]

Maybe I am just too , I know I am so fussy about my own work that I have shared one thing and I am ashamed of that...lol much of the 3d art going into games right now is total crap..Now I understand why they do it but some people whom I will not name and none of which you can find here try to sell this same product for use in our kind of work. Am I mad at them? no, course I want to kick myself everything I get sucked into buying this crap...lol And then they don't support or update their work. Then I get out my little soap box, climb onto it and make people mad at me...lol

I am one of those that has to blow off built up steam from time to time...But still isn't fun to talk about what drives us and sort of where we stand at the moment...Besides I think there is really a great bunch of folk here and it is always great to hear from some you...

 

[James R.]

Some good food for thought here.

When I kitbash my own scifi models for my own use, (I think) I have the luxury of fudging some details...or making up an explanation later for this feature or that issue. Because it’s my world, in my universe, and I can do what I want, so nyeah.

(I do try to stay within the realm of somewhat vaguely plausible scifi physics, though. Kinda. I’m aware that my planes wouldn’t fly...very well... and let’s not discuss my spaceship landing gear, lol )

But I have to agree with you Carey and McGyver, when it comes to products for sale. Especially if they are models of a real-world item or vehicle. Details and accuracy count. I think they should count anyway.

Over the years I’ve heard a lot of people say, “Ah, it’s just for Poser...” as an excuse for a poor product. It’s also kind of an insulting statement because it feels like it’s implying that Poser (and Studio) users shouldn’t expect much, or maybe don’t have the “right” to demand more. “This blob of polygons represents the object in question, and you got it for 20 dollars with a 20% discount coupon, so don’t complain.”

Sometimes I wonder if some artists maybe think it’s still a decade ago and that a model car (for example) that weighs in over a megabyte will be too much for most people’s computers to handle. So they leave the interior a formless blob of primitive shapes, leave out any kind of thickness to the interior roof or roof pillars, etc.

Unfortunately... If it seems the guiding thought was “Aw, it’ll do...” or “Meh, close enough!” I won’t buy it. If it seems like the artist did a great job for the most part but then just gave up...I won’t buy it.

I don’t think there’s any reason to cut corners like this these days, beyond the reasons McGyver mentioned about how much time and work an artist really wants to put into a model...which I do understand. Time is precious, after all. And you have to weigh your investment of time versus your monetary return. Totally understood.

But there are modellers out there who make very detailed, functional, and accurate items and they even somehow manage to sell them at reasonable prices.

Why the inaccuracy? Why the corner-cutting? Is it because this is mainly a hobby for most of us, including the model makers? Does that mean we deserve the issues listed above? Do we deserve less?

I sure don’t know.

 

[Pendraia]

Interesting conversation....I think the amount of realism required for 3D depends on the use the object is being put to. For example if doing a toon render you don't really need realism. However if you are trying for photoreal results something a little bit off can make the resulting render look not quite right. It is all about what you are trying to achieve though...

 

[McGyver]

I used invisible hinges on the Nouvelle Aube Studio doors!

Invisible hinges...!...?
That's it... I'm never speaking to you again!
Naaa... It's probably far worse if I continue to...
It probably constitutes "cruel and unusual punishment"...

Sure though... Make me feel guilty for saying that hinglessness thing.
But I'm fairly remorseless and somewhat heartless, so I guess my guilt is probably just gas or something.

After I read what you said, I checked out your model and I'm convinced you actually used a set of flush mounted Rixson model 117 offset pivot hinges...
The doors are very tall and are perfect candidates for these type of hinges.
You probably forgot about that and that's what I'm gonna tell myself since I can't reconcile it any other way...
Actually... As far as I'm concerned, from now on all doors that don't have visible hinges will have offset pivot hinges.

I'm not walking back on the egressless plane...

Come on... Just drawn on a door, or say it used an instant matter transportation booth...

Okay... I'm not gonna think about that anymore...
And I hope nobody took offense to anything I said.
It's okay if you did though, I'm pretty offensive... Especially right now as I definitely need a shower...
I feel I have a very gorillaish aroma at the moment.

Anyway... Sorry if I offended anyone.

 

[StudioMartillo]

I have a coffee table book of Antique Furniture.
You know how they are, mostly pictures but enough facts and history to make it interesting.
There are certain periods which I like a lot. Just personal taste but that stuff is scary.
The detail of carving, the intricacy of it and of course the nature of the wood is important to good presentation.
But to get that carving stuff looking real nice means kazillions of polygons.
A good modeling tool makes it easy to start with simple shapes and refine them, but these furniture designs are just mad.
Imagine the time that went into making that stuff. Tools were simple. Mostly hand tools.
If something were made like that now it would cost as much, or more than a house.
In fact, some of these antiques that are very rare are now worth millions.
I've been thinking about starting a whole series under the moniker 'Zeke's Antiques'.
Only I wonder if I did a reasonably decent imitation of certain things whether they would be manageable in Poser.
Maybe try just one and see if I can get it looking acceptable to my taste, and then make a Poser prop, or Fig depending.

 

[Satira Capriccio]

I wasn't offended! I mean ... I even put little tiny screws in the plates for the handles on those doors. But hinges? Well, I'm not sure why I didn't model any. Then too, given that Nouvelle Aube ... just like all my characters ... are fantasy rather than realistic, so too are the studio and the furnishings.

The Fen Hut doors also don't have hinges. But it's even more fantasy than the Studio :wink: Of course, that's probably even more obvious since it's built for Pugsley ... who is about as unreal as they come.

The Rixson model 117 offset pivot hinges look pretty cool.


Antique Furniture are amazing.

While not antique, the Zyl Vardos tiny houses are so totally amazing. Abel Zyl's attention to detail and his whimsical designs result in the most incredible tiny houses. If I ever win the lottery (which I don't play), I'm gonna have him build me a tiny house!

Photo Galleries - Zyl Vardos Tiny House Imagery

 

[McGyver]

Those are pretty cool... It's like the Shire on wheels.

 

[Satira Capriccio]

Very true McGyver!

My current favorite is the Damselfly.

 

[Ken Gilliland]

Speaking as someone who create and sells 3d models, there always going to be some trade-offs. Some of the choices I make are based on my assumptions on what the average computer system my users have (so I don't make machine killing models), some choices on the models expected use (some details will probably never be seen) and time spent vs expected income (I do have some sets that I still haven't made a livable 3rd world income on).

Some of detail (and attention to detail) should be expected. Being in this business pretty much from day one, I don't think much our community has to complain about. Thanks to years of some of the bigger stores price slashing and sales, our Poser/DAZ Studio community been given wealth of high quality models for a fraction of what they should be selling for. Don't believe me, look at Turbo Squid and other non-Poser/DS store are selling models for for the Maya/Max crowd. We pay about 1/10th the price and usually get better models which are rigged and textured. I'm old enough to remember Zygotes (pre-DAZ3d) original pricing. You'd be paying $10+ for a basketball (yes, a sphere with a texture over it). Yes, are some content creators out there that produce substandard fare, but I see just as many selling highly detailed products for close to nothing.

To answer a few comments above, yes, I'm built a house for real and my Seashore House model was from real 1880 blueprints. I do usually put screws (mostly via textures) in my models and often, a cylinder for the actually the hinge. While I didn't include the engine in my Swan Car, all the switches and knobs on the dashboard work and the rigged handle doors retract the lock on the hinged doors. I model primarily for my own needs; things I'd expect to see in my renders.

 

[Hornet3d]

Speaking as someone who create and sells 3d models, there always going to be some trade-offs. Some of the choices I make are based on my assumptions on what the average computer system my users have (so I don't make machine killing models), some choices on the models expected use (some details will probably never be seen) and time spend vs expected income (I do have some sets that I still haven't made a livable 3rd world income on).

Some of detail (and attention to detail) should be expected. Being in this business pretty much from day one, I don't think much our community has to complain about. Thanks to years of some of the bigger stores price slashing and sales, our Poser/DAZ Studio community been given wealth of high quality models for a fraction of what they should be selling for. Don't believe me, look at Turbo Squid and other non-Poser/DS store are selling models for for the Maya/Max crowd. We pay about 1/10th the price and usually get better models which are rigged and textured. I'm old enough to remember Zygotes (pre-DAZ3d) original pricing. You'd be paying $10+ for a basketball (yes, a sphere with a texture over it). Yes, are some content creators out there that produce substandard fare, but I see just as many selling highly detailed products for close to nothing.

To answer a few comments above, yes, I'm built a house for real and my Seashore House model was from real 1880 blueprints. I do usually put screws (mostly via textures) in my models and often, a cylinder for the actually the hinge. While I didn't include the engine in my Swan Car, all the switches and knobs on the dashboard work and the rigged handle doors retract the lock on the hinged doors. I model primarily for my own needs; things I'd expect to see in my renders.

I would agree on the comments on pricing and in no way do prices reflect the amount of time invested in creating them let alone any recompense for the time taken to acquire the skills to create. I think the other thing sometimes forgotten is that not everything scales correctly, model makers (I mean real and not virtual) have told me they need to keep in mind the overall look. As an example on a model car if you make the 'A' pillars to scale they 'look' wrong at least if you are looking to produce a die cast model.

 

[James R.]

I think I might have pressed some buttons. I hope I haven't. That wasn't my intention.

But... my opinion on this has always seemingly been against the grain of the Poser/DAZ community. Some people (not in this thread or even on this forum) get very defensive if you question or complain about anything to do with the admittedly arbitrary notion of "expected" quality. The idea of "be grateful for what you bought, it was only $20" annoys me, and when I say this, people get angry at me.

Yep, I know it was only $20. But... can't I complain? Twenty dollars may not buy as much as it did ten years ago, but it's still twenty dollars. That's like... I dunno... a pack of Fruit of the Loom underwear...? Twenty ...um... one-dollar items?

Some modellers can or will fill a model full of detail for $20 and some can't or won't. I get it. Lots of reasons for this. Time versus return. What are people actually going to use it for? The skill level of the modeller. The popularity of the modeller in the marketplace. The deal they have with their vendor. The valuation they place on their work. All perfectly valid reasons.

(BTW, Ken, thank you for your personal perspective on this, I appreciate the insight straight from the virtual workbench. Your models are amazing and are an exception to all of this, IMO.)

Any other modelling artists out there reading this...I'm not picking on the lot of you! I just have questions about what we as Poser/Studio users can or should or have the "right" to expect in the models we buy, and conversely I guess, what pressure modellers should feel to deliver a product. Obviously you can't please everyone all of the time.

None of this has completely stopped me from using Poser models like the 'Cuda below. It's an old model -- Poser 4 era? -- with some flaws based on the model-kit 'blueprints' it was built from. But it's also been a very fun and useful model for me. I had a blast tarting it up with period details I remember from when I was a kid.

However, by necessity (and due to my lack of modelling skill) I've left out details (like hood pins and hood pin lanyards below) and have just hoped that no one notices that the A-pillars are essentially non-existent. In this case if I didn't want to spend $75 I had to say "It'll do". And it did do relatively okay. I'm very happy with it for the fun it gave me. (I did build my own spring shackles for the rear suspension, though. Yay for primitives! )




I just get frustrated with the attitude of "it'll do" or "don't complain", and though I understand the modeller has their reasons for what they do or don't do, I can find the results frustrating sometimes.

Y'know, maybe this issue, for me, is more of an issue with my own lack of modelling skills than anything else. I can currently only use what other people make. Maybe I need to lower my expectations.

View media item 3819

 

[Satira Capriccio]

You didn't press any of my buttons!

I don't think I'd ever do a realistic model simply because I don't think I have the skill and knowledge to do so. I couldn't even imagine attempting to create an automobile. I've some rudimentary (very, very rudimentary) skill in woodworking type projects, but no training in shop type work. Closest I get are the sculpture classes I took in college. But that's a completely different animal from building a bookshelf with glass doors and sculpting an abstract form out of wood or stone.

I did research ... especially, on windows, doors, walls, etc., while creating the Nouvelle Aube Studio. But it wasn't my intent to make a for real building as I mentioned up above. I hope that doesn't come across as an excuse.

I've purchased models with working parts such as doors, steering wheels, and wheels. But I've also purchased models that didn't have those moving parts. I guess I never really thought all that much about it. Then too, it really all depended on how I intended to use the product.

There are some really amazing models out there ... and modellers.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with expecting the models you purchase be fairly accurate and detailed. Especially, if you do realistic renders. It's kinda jarring if you have fairly realistic figures in the scene ... and then a clearly not so very realistic vehicle or building.

In my opinion ... $20 isn't an insignificant amount of money

 

[James R.]

You didn't press any of my buttons!

I don't think I'd ever do a realistic model simply because I don't think I have the skill and knowledge to do so. I couldn't even imagine attempting to create an automobile. I've some rudimentary (very, very rudimentary) skill in woodworking type projects, but no training in shop type work. Closest I get are the sculpture classes I took in college. But that's a completely different animal from building a bookshelf with glass doors and sculpting an abstract form out of wood or stone.

I did research ... especially, on windows, doors, walls, etc., while creating the Nouvelle Aube Studio. But it wasn't my intent to make a for real building as I mentioned up above. I hope that doesn't come across as an excuse.

I've purchased models with working parts such as doors, steering wheels, and wheels. But I've also purchased models that didn't have those moving parts. I guess I never really thought all that much about it. Then too, it really all depended on how I intended to use the product.

There are some really amazing models out there ... and modellers.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with expecting the models you purchase be fairly accurate and detailed. Especially, if you do realistic renders. It's kinda jarring if you have fairly realistic figures in the scene ... and then a clearly not so very realistic vehicle or building.

In my opinion ... $20 isn't an insignificant amount of money

I'm glad I haven't hit a nerve with you.

I don't think what you said comes across as an excuse at all. What you said makes sense: you weren't re-creating an actual real world building.

I tend to do realistic(ish) stuff, even if it's fictional. So I guess my hopes regarding what I'll find in a model reflect that: I hope to find useful realism. And I'm kinda nerdy (who knew?) so I like lots of details.

All in all, this comes down to the freedom of choice the artist has. I have freedom in what I create and so does the person whose model(s) I buy. I guess I need to respect that a bit more.

It just might mean I can't use their product the way I'd hoped to... which in turn means I might not buy it.

But I'm just one dude! There will be tons of other people for whom a product will be perfect and it will be put to great use.

 

[Hornet3d]

No button pressed here either although it my age it wouldn't matter if they were as, along with a lot of other things, at my age they don't work.

I tend not to worry too much about accuracy but then I always say I am aiming to achieve something that is believable rather than photo realistic. I don't have the skills or the patience for the later and, as almost all of my work is sci-fi or fantasy, none of my renders are ever going to be mistaken for photographs no matter how realistic.

Everyone should be allowed to complain (as long it is done in the right manner) but I still think I buy a lot of quality stuff for a stunning low price. That is not to say I will use anything, comes back to the believable aim I guess, so it there is something that looks to thin to do the job in question, say a super thin steel on a bridge, I either play with the scales or I just don't use it.

 

[James R.]

No button pressed here either although it my age it wouldn't matter if they were as, along with a lot of other things, at my age they don't work.

I tend not to worry too much about accuracy but then I always say I am aiming to achieve something that is believable rather than photo realistic. I don't have the skills or the patience for the later and, as almost all of my work is sci-fi or fantasy, none of my renders are ever going to be mistaken for photographs no matter how realistic.

Everyone should be allowed to complain (as long it is done in the right manner) but I still think I buy a lot of quality stuff for a stunning low price. That is not to say I will use anything, comes back to the believable aim I guess, so it there is something that looks to thin to do the job in question, say a super thin steel on a bridge, I either play with the scales or I just don't use it.

You know, you're right. There is a cubic megaton of excellent stuff out there, and I daresay most of it is reasonably priced. I hope I didn't somehow imply that I think that's not the case. :-/

Frankly, Poser and Studio content just keeps improving as technology advances.

 

[StudioMartillo]

I think I mentioned before that one of my more Fantastical Items comes from an idea to solve a real world problem.
After the 2007 Atlantic Hurricane season, and all the devastation caused, it occurred to me that housing in
vulnerable areas should be designed to withstand hurricane force winds.
It's probably too much to hope that people will change things but there was an inspiration anyway.
I have posted the pictorial History of Mod Pods here.

 

[Carey]

Wow, this great, How to respond to all of this or really any of it. Perhaps we should consider this, I have been doing work in 3D for over twenty years... I have never met anyone who has not been working in 3D in some way that has heard of programs like daz studio or poser. seems us 3D folks really know how to keep a secret...lol Now I used to think that 3D was really cutting edge when I first got interested, now I see signs of it not only dying, but being killed off. recent decisions about copyright and just how far it reaches is likely to kill 3D off before any of our work makes it into the Smithsonian or some famous art gallery somewhere, let alone be the go to programs for illustration.

This next week some of my work goes up for auction, it is a charity event so I'll make nothing, but it does beg the question, how far do copy rights go? How far should they go, Can or should mesh shapes be covered like some companies copyright the letters that make up their name... If a ten million dollar ad campaign will include art work created in daz studio or poser, what is owed and to whom. Then we have the biggie, the programs we use phone home, how much they phone home and just exactly what all they are phoning home is any ones guess... How smart does a computer have to be to take a person completely out of mesh work and illustration or design completely..

will 3D scans of famous paintings as well as textures make computerized DaVinci's available at Wallmart ?

I don't expect anyone to have the answers even though we are the ones shaping the future of 3D right now...comments?