Getting the best out of Dynamic clothing every time...

[eclark1894]

Okay, so I've been a bit distracted for the last few days. My day job, mainly, and... well, not getting enough sleep to do it properly. Anyway, so now that I've determined that the cloth presets are not working properly in Poser 11, who do I report that problem to. PhilC and hope that he will rewrite the Python script to get it working again, or Smith Micro and hope that they will fix whatever broke the script in the first place?

I'm starting to feel another WISHLIST thread coming on for Poser 12. We need some improvements in the Cloth Room, and one of them would be a way to not only import cloth presets , but a way to save any custom presets you come up with in the Cloth room and to store them, preferably in the Cloth itself. As a Content Creator, if I go through all the trouble of finding the right and proper settings so that the cloth is acting exactly as I want it to, I should have someway to store that info and pass it on to the customer.

 

[VortigensBane]

I learned that Poser Pro (2014) saves the simulation presets when you save a dynamic cloth object, so when you load the cloth, all the simulation parameters, constrained vertices, secondary dynamic groups, soft decorated, etc. loads with the file. I don't have Poser 11, so don't know if that works differently. The drawback to this system is that the dynamic cloth prop preset doesn't load automatically parented to the figure's hip. You have to open the file in a text editor and type the few words of code that makes it parent properly. Why, I don't know. Like I said, I have taken a long break from the Cloth Room ever since I got VWD Cloth and Hair (because you can edit the simulated cloth by tugging on vertices during simulations to make the cloth behave properly). The big benefit of the Cloth Room, though, is that you can set up a garment which has many different "types" of cloth in it. I used that A LOT when I was working on my tasselled horseblanket. I think I had 15 different dynamic groups on the same prop...

 

[eclark1894]

I learned that Poser Pro (2014) saves the simulation presets when you save a dynamic cloth object, so when you load the cloth, all the simulation parameters, constrained vertices, secondary dynamic groups, soft decorated, etc. loads with the file. I don't have Poser 11, so don't know if that works differently. The drawback to this system is that the dynamic cloth prop preset doesn't load automatically parented to the figure's hip. You have to open the file in a text editor and type the few words of code that makes it parent properly. Why, I don't know. Like I said, I have taken a long break from the Cloth Room ever since I got VWD Cloth and Hair (because you can edit the simulated cloth by tugging on vertices during simulations to make the cloth behave properly). The big benefit of the Cloth Room, though, is that you can set up a garment which has many different "types" of cloth in it. I used that A LOT when I was working on my tasselled horseblanket. I think I had 15 different dynamic groups on the same prop...

Actually, now that you mention it, I had forgotten that Poser will save some things to the library. Of course, I'll have to check to see if the cloth parameters are one of the things it will save. Of course, If I'm not mistaken, you should still be able to load a cloth prop already parented to a figure's hip if you smart prop it.

 

[Satira Capriccio]

Both Poser Pro 2014 and Poser Pro 11 will save dynamic clothing both as smart props and with the simulation parameters and cloth groups saved. The simulation settings and the collision objects are not saved. But the Dynamics Controls parameter settings and the Cloth Groups are stored with the pp2 file.

 

[eclark1894]

A quick tip: Dynamic clothing can be saved as either a PP2 prop or a wave front object. One essential difference between them is that a PP2 prop MAY have saved dynamic settings information stored in it, which means Poser will recognize that it has been clothified once before. Poser will ask about this if it has. You should check the Read me's of any dynamic clothing you buy to see if the vendor has included any dynamic information in the clothing. In any case, you should check the geometry file in the runtime for a "clean" object file if that's what you prefer to use.

 

[eclark1894]

The mesh topology and construction is clearly very important which is why I think your tutorial has a wider audience than just total beginners. I have a basic understanding and do use dynamic clothing but I would be very interested in this aspect of the cloth room.

To that regard, something I haven't tried yet, but would like to if I can find or make it, is a mesh with variable topology. In other words, how would a mesh with large polys act while also connected to a mesh with smaller polys? For example, suppose you have a leather vest connected front and back with a cotton or satin mesh between? Would that blow Poser's mind?

 

[VortigensBane]

Nope. Been there, done that. Draped a silk horseblanket, with leather borders, solid beads, and organza tassels. Poser didn't mind at all, and it is one continuous mesh without seams. Not to brag, or anything, but each part of this blanket is its own material zone and cloth simulation group. Each one is different...

 

[eclark1894]

Kool!

 

[Miss B]

Very nicely done VB. I don't envy you the time it took to set up all those simulation groups.

 

[Gadget Girl]

I've been meaning to track this thread down again. I will say I'd love to hear people's thoughts on topology for the meshes for dynamic clothing. I'm sure there's a lot here I don't know. In fact I don't think I've ever seen anything that deals with that aspect of the cloth room.

 

[eclark1894]

From ost of the reading I've been doing on the subject, one of the things that determines a mesh's topology should be what that mesh is supposed to be. For example, a silk scarf should have plenty of vertices and small polys as opposed to a blanket or a tablecloth which can get away with fewer vertices and larger polys. Why? A silk scarf tends to bend and fold rather easily, plus it's not going to be that big so it won't take up much computer resources during calculations. A dynamic blanket and tablecloth on the other hand aren't really expect to have to bend that much. They're main function is basically to drape. How much it drapes depends on what it's supposed to be made of. A wool blanket is not going to drape as much or as nicely as a cotton sheet. And yes, some of this will be determined by construction, and some by dynamics.

 

[kobaltkween]

For dynamic clothes, your mesh topology should also work with how you want the clothes to look and move. I've seen person after person swear that random Delaunay tris always best. But they're only best if you want random draping. Make a T shirt like that, and it will work great for wrinkly cotton or linen, and not so great for a chemise with a bit of spandex or lycra in it to make it drape more smoothly. If you want mostly radial wrinkles in a skirt, you want a higher radial density. You can have the same exact shape and size, but different topologies will sim _very_ differently.

If you want, say, a suit jacket, my suggestion is to not only use quads, but to carefully control your loop cuts. The arms, for instance, should wrinkle perpendicular to the arm, not so much along it. I'd also say you should make the initial "default" pose an A pose rather than a T pose, since real suit jackets are sewn with the arms down, not straight out. You want nicely defined shoulders? Model them in, and let raising arms above the head do what they do to people in real life.

 

[eclark1894]

A few tips, especially for beginners. Everyone wants to do a masterpiece and the more you practice, the sooner and faster you'll get there. But don't be in TOO big of a hurry.

1. If you're just starting out in the Cloth room start with small poses, like sitting down, lying down or walking.
2. Fit your clothes to the figure in the default or zero pose position. If nothing else, it's just easier.

 

[Gadget Girl]

For example, a silk scarf should have plenty of vertices and small polys as opposed to a blanket or a tablecloth which can get away with fewer vertices and larger polys.

For dynamic clothes, your mesh topology should also work with how you want the clothes to look and move. I've seen person after person swear that random Delaunay tris always best. But they're only best if you want random draping.

So thanks both of you for this info. I especially like it since it confirms my own experience. I remember seeing prevailing wisdom that tris were better than quads always, and it never seemed to work that way when I'd actually try and sim some things.

Also I feel better now, because I've just started working on a Pteruges (Roman armor skirt) which will be dynamic because I can't imagine rigging it so it would move right. But it's not a 'flowy' type of outfit. The segments would be leather and although they would move, they shouldn't bend randomly. So I feel much better about my choice of quads now.

 

[Gadget Girl]

So I did an experiment the other day that I thought might be useful to this thread. I was making my own tutorial to go with a dynamics set I'm finishing up when I realized something. I hadn't been using Cloth Self-Collsions (one of the check boxes when you first make a new cloth sim). I've always used this religiously because. . . well because I'm pretty sure a tutorial once said I should, but I'd forgotten to in this case. When I turned it on and compared my results, I decided this is a misnamed box. It should really be Cloth Self-Friction. I'll show you:

So my outfit is a little different than you're standard outfit since it's not a big piece of flowing cloth, but lots of strips that I wanted to move on their own. To see what was happening differently I stepped through the simulation with no self collision, and the various segments are colliding, they never pass through each other. But when two segments hit, they each go their own way. It's not quite what I'd call a bounce, but what they don't do, as you can see is 'stick' to each other. Which is sort of something I wanted, but not quite.

I did spend quite a lot of time tweaking the dynamic settings on the cloth trying to get it to behave like a heavier leather. I made these settings with Self-Collision off, so I'm not sure what would have happened if I'd been tweaking with it on, but one of the things I wanted, was that if one of the segments hit the leg, like if the figure is lunging forward I didn't want the leather to just slide off the leg, but to need a bit of force to overcome the friction. It's behaving the way I want when it hits the figure, but with cloth self-collision on, it clearly needs a lot of force to overcome the friction of the various segments hitting each other, which isn't what I wanted.

Of course this is why you suggest settings when you create anything dynamic, and some people might like the cloth self-collision on setting better. (I should also note, I had a lot of translation stuff going on for this sim, which is why you are seeing so much movement.)

 

[Dakorillon (IMArts)]

Nope. Been there, done that. Draped a silk horseblanket, with leather borders, solid beads, and organza tassels. Poser didn't mind at all, and it is one continuous mesh without seams. Not to brag, or anything, but each part of this blanket is its own material zone and cloth simulation group. Each one is different...View attachment 22098

Want!!!! lol. That is just so beautiful.

 

[eclark1894]

So I did an experiment the other day that I thought might be useful to this thread. I was making my own tutorial to go with a dynamics set I'm finishing up when I realized something. I hadn't been using Cloth Self-Collsions (one of the check boxes when you first make a new cloth sim). I've always used this religiously because. . . well because I'm pretty sure a tutorial once said I should, but I'd forgotten to in this case. When I turned it on and compared my results, I decided this is a misnamed box. It should really be Cloth Self-Friction. I'll show you:

So my outfit is a little different than you're standard outfit since it's not a big piece of flowing cloth, but lots of strips that I wanted to move on their own. To see what was happening differently I stepped through the simulation with no self collision, and the various segments are colliding, they never pass through each other. But when two segments hit, they each go their own way. It's not quite what I'd call a bounce, but what they don't do, as you can see is 'stick' to each other. Which is sort of something I wanted, but not quite.

I did spend quite a lot of time tweaking the dynamic settings on the cloth trying to get it to behave like a heavier leather. I made these settings with Self-Collision off, so I'm not sure what would have happened if I'd been tweaking with it on, but one of the things I wanted, was that if one of the segments hit the leg, like if the figure is lunging forward I didn't want the leather to just slide off the leg, but to need a bit of force to overcome the friction. It's behaving the way I want when it hits the figure, but with cloth self-collision on, it clearly needs a lot of force to overcome the friction of the various segments hitting each other, which isn't what I wanted.

Of course this is why you suggest settings when you create anything dynamic, and some people might like the cloth self-collision on setting better. (I should also note, I had a lot of translation stuff going on for this sim, which is why you are seeing so much movement.)

I'm just guessing here, but from my understanding of what I've read, let's not forget that for Poser, this is all a simulation of real world physics. Which means there's going to be an edge somewhere and that edge is going to interact with other edges, and not just the broad flat sides.