PhysicalSurface Node Misbehaving

[kobaltkween]

For no apparent reason, I'm not having PhysicalSurface 1.0 metallic shaders work properly in Firefly. I can make a basic metal shader just fine in Poser (it just needs colored reflection). But for some reason, the reflection just isn't happening when I use the PhysicalSurface node. And it _is_ happening in Superfly. Mind, there's still a difference between it and a proper plain metal (pure Glossy BSDF) in Superfly, but at least it's _kind of_ reflecting.

Mind, I was just testing the mesh, not the materials. I just got concerned when the Firefly PhysicalSurface metal didn't seem to work properly. Oh, and interestingly, changing the specular color doesn't affect it at all. I guess that makes sense, but I didn't know what else to try.

PhysicalSurface - Firefly

PoserSurface - Firefly

PhysicalSurface - Superfly

Cycles - Superfly

 

[Pendraia]

Can you put both renders on the physical surface? I'm still learning about this but I thought it was so you could differentiate between the two render engines and still use just one mat for both.

 

[kobaltkween]

Right, right. So the first render is the PhysicalSurface shader rendered in Firefly. The third is the same PhysicalSurface shader rendered in Superfly. The second and fourth renders are with simple metal shaders (colored reflection) designed for their respective renderers for comparison. The most correct is, bizarrely, the Firefly custom shader. The next most correct is the Superfly custom shader, but its issue may be the default blur on the Glossy BSDF node. Testing a bit, that seems to be the issue. Then it's how the PhysicalSurface shader renders in Superfly, and last how it renders in Firefly. Which makes the bigger point that I'm not getting _at all_ the same or even similar performance with the PhysicalSurface root as compared to Firefly and Superfly. Which would be the only reason I have to use it other than colored transparency (which really should be available to Firefly on its own). But even that renders entirely differently, as you can see here if you look at the "glass" portion.

I'd swear I didn't have this issue before when I was playing around with the PhysicalSurface node before, but I wasn't careful or thorough, since it's a very simplistic node and I'd only be able to use it on very simple shaders (1 level of SSS, no anisotropic reflections or properties, no velvet properties, etc.). So I can't swear to whether it was OK before or not.

 

[Pendraia]

Okay...so essentially using the physical surface isn't giving you the same results in both renderers?

I'm not an expert, but I have been setting up materials to use with a product where I'm using the Physical surface node and I'm getting a similar result for both products(not exactly the same but similar).

Initially the mats have been set up using the Poser Surface root and with both renderers ticked. I've added the physical surface root and ticked Superfly then linked the nodes into the Physical surface and adjusted the surface so the settings are going to work in Superfly.

I thought that was what the Physical Surface root allowed you to do set up one material which worked with both. I didn't think it would automatically make them the same though.
Here's a comparison shot of my textures set up in the one mat file. These were done as I was setting up the mouth and teeth. Bottom one is Superfly...as you can see they are different which is what I expected. I'm still adjusting the firefly settings as I'm getting some issues.

 

[Gadget Girl]

So here's the thing about the Physical Surface Node, it can definitely be used with either FF or SF, but. . . it's really designed for SF. It's based of off Cycles (as is SF) and so it's designed for physical based render engines. Doesn't mean you can't use it with FF and get good results, but there is definitely no guarantee that they will be the same. I have found specifically with the Metallic, that FF seems to have issues if you don't have an image map on the Diffuse. I'm not positive that's a thing, but FF doesn't do as well just making a base shader that way.

 

[phdubrov]

One other thing - I don't remember if SM promised that PhysicalSurface is stable (and even that SF interpretation of PoserSurface is stable). That's why I prefer keep FF and SF shaders apart.

 

[Pendraia]

Ahh...good to know. I do have image in the diffuse for both the surface node and the physical surface. Metallic would explain the purple in the mouth of the firefly render possibly. Okay...separate mats I can do that. I had the impression that Poser users would expect a single mat for both.

 

[Gadget Girl]

Okay...separate mats I can do that. I had the impression that Poser users would expect a single mat for both.

Actually most products I own the support SF have separate mat folders one for FF and one for SF shaders. That being said, personally I prefer a single mat, because it means I can just change my mind if I want to see how things look with the other render engine, and don't have to load up different mats.

 

[CWRW]

I tend to stick to using the Physical Surface node for just Superfly MATs, and I still do my FF and SF MATs separately. I know I am old school But it works for me. I AM trying some new things as I go along though but won't use them in my market products til I feel more confident in using them.

 

[Pendraia]

Thanks Laurie and GG, that's useful to know. I have the firefly mats done almost complete. Just need to do the Superfly ones. I was thinking of trying the physical surface node for that as it was working beautiful for superfly just had problems with firefly.

 

[CWRW]

Thanks Laurie and GG, that's useful to know. I have the firefly mats done almost complete. Just need to do the Superfly ones. I was thinking of trying the physical surface node for that as it was working beautiful for superfly just had problems with firefly.

One reason too I still stick to the sep. MATs is I know sometimes MATs made in P 11 can do odd things in earlier versions of Poser/Firefly depending on how complex they are. I KNOW they are SUPPOSED to work for all, but I prefer not to take the risk and end up having to redo a bunch of work I AM learning more as I go but def need to learn loads more too

 

[Pendraia]

Sounds good...and you definitely know more than me about Poser! I've managed to do the firefly mats but haven't tested them in poser10 yet. I will hopefully get chance to do that today and then it will be on to the Superfly mats.

 

[kobaltkween]

Sorry! Been trying to get back into baking. So to be clear, it's not _just_ that the PhysicalSurface node isn't working the same in each renderer. It's also that the "metallic" property isn't working like metal should. In Firefly, it's not doing that at all. All it's producing is fake specular in Firefly. In Superfly, it's OK but still not good. And I've seen videos where it did work in Firefly, so I'm kind of lost as to what's wrong.

It's not a long term issue for me. I've got a complete set of FF shaders (from plain to complex mixes), and I'm working on a set of Cycles shaders I'll port to Poser. I'm completely comfortable making customized materials, and generally prefer control. I'm more concerned with the general issue of not getting the results I should be and not knowing why. If anyone could show me a PhysicalSurface metal in FF that works, I'd love to see it and talk about your settings and scene. I figure that I have to be missing something for that FF render to fail like that.

 

[Pendraia]

After trying to link the mats using the Physical surface node, I must say I did notice problems with the firefly texture when it was there it gave it a purple glow and made the head seam visible even in the renders which it hadn't prior to the physical node being set up. I went back to separate mats. Firefly mats are done so now I need to do the superfly ones.

 

[kobaltkween]

After trying to link the mats using the Physical surface node, I must say I did notice problems with the firefly texture when it was there it gave it a purple glow and made the head seam visible even in the renders which it hadn't prior to the physical node being set up. I went back to separate mats. Firefly mats are done so now I need to do the superfly ones.

Oh, that totally sucks. I'm so sorry you have to do extra work. If it were Superfly, I'd say the purple might mean a map is missing. In Blender, that's what comes up when it's not sure where an image is.

The one thing I've not found a way to do in Firefly without the PhysicalNode is colored transparency. That blue "glass" on the star, see how its shadow is properly blue? I've been wanting that for _ages_. It's in Firefly and has been for years, IIRC, but this is the first time I've seen it exposed. If I find a way to get it to work with a PoserSurface node, I'll definitely let people know.

 

[Pendraia]

That's life...sometimes crap happens. Yeah I saw the coloured transparency on the tutorial. It seems pretty cool.

 

[kobaltkween]

I'm big into light. I've been wanting proper stained glass windows that cast colored shadows since I began with PPP.