Why does Poser (9) smoothing break the mesh?

[3WC]

Please bear with me for a minor rant. But I'm also sincerely looking for suggestions and input.

This issue came up for me when my first commercial product was being beta tested. My beta tester said that rendering in Poser (this was Poser 9 I believe, and that is the only version I have as well) made my mesh explode when the "Smooth Polygons" option was on. Now this was my first experience with "Smooth Polygons"; I'd never even noticed that option, and I didn't have much experience with Poser in general. So I gave sort of a flippant Groucho Marx answer, a la "Doctor, it hurts when I do this." Doctor: "Then don't do that!" I said, "Well, then just don't turn on Polygon Smoothing." My tester said, "I always turn on smoothing, it generally makes renders look better." Then she explained that by beveling edges, etc, I could avoid the problem.

Well, I took some umbrage at first. I thought, there is no problem with my mesh in Blender when I apply a smoothing modifier. Daz Studio seems to be fine with my mesh. Why should I change my modelling habits just to satisfy the foibles of smoothing in Poser 9? Plus I'd already put a lot of work into the project, so I didn't want to make any major changes at this late stage. I think the solution I chose was to just put in the readme file to not turn on polygon smoothing when rendering, or you will have less than optimal results.

But then I got to thinking, well, if I'm going to create content for Poser, maybe I should just learn how to cater to the oddities of the program. What's the harm in adding a beveled edge here and there to maintain sharpness? It could make me a better modeller, right? So with subsequent projects I have tried to keep that in mind, with more or less satisfactory results.

Fast forward to my latest project, and once again I am having problems with smoothing in Poser. Even putting in beveled edges in the problem areas didn't seem to do anything. So I resolved to find out what was going on once and for all. What follows is my experiment, with illustrations.

 

[3WC]

I simply copied the part of the mesh that was giving me problems. As you can see in Fig. 01, it is a simple hexagonal shape.

Fig. 01

I imported this to Poser 9, turned on polygon smoothing, and rendered. As you can see in Fig. 2, the mesh completely explodes.

Fig. 02

As a control experiment, I also imported the same object to DS 4.8, left smoothing at the default angle of 89.something, and rendered. No major problems, as shown in Fig. 3.

Fig. 3

 

[3WC]

So then I put in some bevels, as you can see in Fig. 04

Fig. 04

Rendered in Poser 9:

Fig. 05


Rendered in DS 4.8:

Fig. 06

(Please note, all these figures are the same object, just with added loops and bevels. For some reason Blender exported it as a different color each time--maybe because i had several materials still around from the project i copied the mesh from. That's an idiosyncrasy of Blender, I guess. A post for another time...)

 

[3WC]

So then I thought, maybe I need some bevels on the face of the object. Let's add those:

Fig. 07

Poser render:

Fig. 08

DS render:

Fig. 09

 

[3WC]

Ok, let's just start adding more edges. More, more...

Fig. 10

Poser is a little better, but still unacceptable:

Fig. 11

DS is about the same. (This is getting boring.)

Fig. 12

 

[3WC]

So now our geometry is getting so dense for a simple little figure, it's kind of ridiculous. But let's subdivide one more time and see what happens:

Fig. 13

Poser render. Still not what I would call good, just "ok".

Fig. 14

DS render. Why do I still bother? Hasn't changed at all.

Fig. 15

 

[3WC]

Okay, last one, I promise. And with this one, I found a suggestion on the RDNA forums which actually said if you separate the mesh, you'll be fine. So I thought I would try it. I reimported the original simple mesh and separated all the planes around the edge so that none of them are attached to each other or the hexagonal pieces.

Fig. 16

Poser render. Hmmm, seems counter-intuitive to me, but it actually works.

Fig. 17

DS render. Whatever.

Fig. 18

Now, I would view this as a workaround, not necessarily a good solution. In the same RDNA thread where I found this, other comments reflected that opinion. In effect, you are wrecking or breaking your own mesh so that Poser won't break it (sounds kind of childish). And having gaps in what is supposed to be a solid piece could lead to other problems.

Thanks for bearing with this rant. Please feel free to add to the discussion, tell me your solution, totally disagree with me, or disregard the whole thread. Do newer versions of Poser still do this when smoothing?

 

[3WC]

This also works:

Fig. 19

Poser render is acceptable, I would say, though you can still see some minor problems at the corners.

Fig. 20

 

[Miss B]

Hmmmmm. I have Poser 9, but I don't as a general rule check Smooth Polygons, so not sure about that.

I do have Blender, and I also do the extra edging on the front, back and side faces in order to get nice sharp edges.

What I haven't figured out, though have tried before, is how to "separate" the pieces. I can add seams for creating my UV Maps, but how do you actually separate pieces? If I select, for instance, the front face of that hexagon, I think the usual options are to move it, extrude it, resize it, or delete it completely. Where is there an option to split the edge seams? This curious mind wants to know.

 

[3WC]

What I haven't figured out, though have tried before, is how to "separate" the pieces. I can add seams for creating my UV Maps, but how do you actually separate pieces? If I select, for instance, the front face of that hexagon, I think the usual options are to move it, extrude it, resize it, or delete it completely. Where is there an option to split the edge seams? This curious mind wants to know.

In this case, I selected each plane around the edge with Alt-lft click, hit Shift-D to duplicate. Then while those duplicates were still selected, I hid them. Alt-left click again to select the connected loop of faces, and x to delete them. Then unhide your duplicates. Going into edge edit mode, I then selected each edge between the planes, hit ctrl-E; select split edges.

You can also select the mesh you want to separate, and hit P.

 

[Pendraia]

Hi, I recently started to use Poser when I was converting Diva...so I'm not sure if any of this will be of help. Smoothing works so differently in Poser.

Things I've found when using Diva in Poser are:
One go to Figure /Skinning Method/Poser Unimesh...this will show a box in properties where you can add levels. I usually use 2-3 with Diva.
I also enable smoothing under the render settings.

Those images look like those edges have become unwelded...how are you getting your model into Poser?

I've found that somethings just won't work well even when exported to a cr2.

A dress I've made and rigged in DS when conformed in Poser the skirt goes out to the side. Some of it's to do with the different ways of rigging.

I hope some of this is useful...

 

[sanbie]

Ok all you need to do is go around the edges closely that you want to stay sharp...I will see if I can do a screenshot for you

 

[Miss B]

In this case, I selected each plane around the edge with Alt-lft click, hit Shift-D to duplicate. Then while those duplicates were still selected, I hid them. Alt-left click again to select the connected loop of faces, and x to delete them. Then unhide your duplicates. Going into edge edit mode, I then selected each edge between the planes, hit ctrl-E; select split edges.

You can also select the mesh you want to separate, and hit P.

Ohhhhh, now why didn't I think of that? I think I may have done the "split edges" before, but since it's not something I do on a regular basis, I totally forgot about it.

Thanks for the reminder.

 

[sanbie]

Ok I see by your screenshots that you did that...can I ask why you want to use smoothing on it...wouldn't you be better off doing that in your modelling program?

 

[Miss B]

Things I've found when using Diva in Poser are:
One go to Figure /Skinning Method/Poser Unimesh...this will show a box in properties where you can add levels. I usually use 2-3 with Diva.

I also enable smoothing under the render settings.

That's fine for Poser 10 or higher, but Poser 9, which is what 3wComics was referring to, doesn't have the Skinning > Unimesh option.

 

[3WC]

Ok I see by your screenshots that you did that...can I ask why you want to use smoothing on it...wouldn't you be better off doing that in your modelling program?

I don't want to use smoothing. I don't generally even use Poser. But like I said, a beta tester once complained about it, saying that she always turned on smoothing, and my meshes were exploding. So I thought it was a common practice for people to use that option.

Maybe that's what I want to hear, though, that not everyone worries about it. Maybe I'm good as-is.

 

[3WC]

Those images look like those edges have become unwelded...how are you getting your model into Poser?

I've found that somethings just won't work well even when exported to a cr2.

Yes, but when I deliberately unweld them, then they stay sharp, as in Fig. 16-17. I just imported these as obj files, but the same thing is happening when this mesh is part of a larger model and in a cr2 file.

 

[sanbie]

Are they doing unimesh...or are they doing smoothing in render settings?
I think you can up the crease angle in edit general preferences

 

[Pendraia]

Aah...sorry didn't realise. I keep forgetting how 9 doesn't have the functions I use in 10

 

[Miss B]

Are they doing unimesh...or are they doing smoothing in render settings?
I think you can up the crease angle in edit general preferences

I just opened Poser 9 out of curiosity, and even though I don't usually have Smooth Polygons checked in the Render Settings, I just loaded a Poser included primitive, and on the Properties tab (next to the Parameters tab), Smooth Polygons IS checked, and there's a place to set the Crease Angle. In this case, the primitive I used, Frame_1, had the Crease Angle set to 0.00, even though my General Preferences has the Crease Angle set to the default 80.0.

Could having the Smooth Polygons checked both in the Properties tab, AND the Render Settings make a difference? Could it be smoothing the polygons too much?

Sanbie, Poser 9 doesn't have Unimesh. That's an option that was introduced with Poser 10.