New User Questions Pt. II

[Tynkere]

Hi everyone,

Been a while since I posted, so back with more questions. Sorry if long-- they’ve been piling up!

1.) Can members post a render for critique?

If show them to friends or relatives, they say “Oh how cute!” Not going to get any better at it what way. : )

Could use all the help I can get if HW has a place for critiques.

2.) Iray for SBRM planned? That’s the newer version? Just curious.

3.) Since I’m new to the party, am not sure where to begin with horse products! O _ o

HW horse (and perhaps draught horse) would go well, but a bit confused by sheer number of horse products and optional texture packs. If viewed from a medium distance away (and depending on render settings of course) would I be able to tell the difference? If texture/surface mat packs do make a difference-- one for the basic horse and one for the draught horse?

Thanks for your time in reading. Will try to make future posts a bit shorter. : )

--Bruce

 

[Rae134]

I'll try my best, I'm sure others will add more to it

1) Yes, but you might have to specifically ask for it when you post your image. Some people don't like it so sometimes people won't comment with suggestions but if you specifically ask for critique people will be very helpful.

2) Ken's slowly going through his catalogue and updating (but as you would most likely know, he has A LOT of models )

3) Horse are my passion, I think I own every horse product there is out there for 3D I can honestly say that the HW Horse is the easiest to use (and I think most realistic) most people just have to get used to selecting the Horse to morph the mane/tail/fetlocks instead each of those (see attached image, I'm not the best on terminology).

The Base horse has a nice Bay texture, no white markings (and a hint of Dapples and there are 2 other textures the same colour but one has 4 white legs and the other has the same 4 white legs with an added star/stripe) where as the Draft Horse is more of a Blood Bay with high white legs and wide blaze.
If you go to my Mock Magazine Covers gallery here, Magazine Covers | HiveWire 3D Community , these show most of the current morphs and coat textures (a couple tho might be custom ones I've made for my own use like the winged appaloosa) but it will also show the difference between the base horse texture with the Star/Stripe on the jumping horse and the Draft horse.

You'll need to check each item for sale, some will be a Breed Morph (usually with its own texture or 2 that is unique to that breed for example the Friesian and Quarterhorse) and some will just be Textures sets (for example the wonderful "CWRW Ultra Textures for the HiveWire Pack 1 and 2" or like my fantasy "Kitty Ponies" texture sets.)

 

[Hornet3d]

I don't think many artists post here and actually ask for critique so it will be interesting to see any results. Many will be reluctant because they do not feel skilled enough to comment and also because elsewhere, while some encourage both positive and negative comments, they get quite upset on the negative ones and as a rule they don't do upset here at Hivewire. With those points out of the way I would say go for it and post away. I have been posting here for a few years now and while most people just post likes I have had quite a lot of comment and guidance as well and all the comments have been creative, constructive and well meant. Even the likes are useful if you keep in mind that those liking a render understand the processes and software you have used, a lot more value than an 'Oh so cute' from someone who does not understand even if it is well intentioned. Not complaining but I am sure all of use here have seen people's eyes glaze over when they show their work or talk of their hobby.

I try not to give advice but I would suggest that you don't make up your mind on how well it is going after posting a couple of renders. There are alot of people here that take the time and trouble to critique my renders on an ad hoc basis but I hope I have shown over time that I not only accept and value the comments but I actually try them out. If people have spent time helping you I think the least I can do is put in some effort. It suspect it will take a little time to understand where you are coming from and how to best approach you. This may seem a fairly simple statement to make but I have seen on another forum recently where someone ask for critique and then ranted at the responses. The end result was more the one person replied that if all they are going to do is defend their existing position then there is little point in anyone trying to help. In fairness the person finally took this on board and now receives and fair amount of help but they made the process a lot harder than it needs be. The only thing I can say with some certainty, if you are looking for well meant critique Hivewire is one of, if not the best place, to do it. The people here are very knowledgeable and more than happy to help in whatever way they can.

Moving on to the horse I would say well worth having and great to use. Add on textures would be dependant on how you are going to use the horse and for many a horse in the distance would just be a horse. That said I think there are horse people here who could spot the breed from a considerable distance. I am not a great horse person but I do have the horse along with the Western Tack, Friesian, Arabian, Roan and Unicorn add ons, that more than meets my particular needs. If you use Dawn the 'Girl With Horse Poses' might also be a good buy as it saves a lot of time by giving a good starting pose that you can tweak to meet your needs.

I hope that helps but just shout if you need further guidance and there is more than one point of view which often gives you more than one way to proceed.

Hope you enjoy your time here.

 

[Tynkere]

@Rae134

Thanks for taking the time in making screen shot. UI looks pretty straight forward. Also nice to meet a ‘horse person’ since only dim childhood memories of grandparents' farm in Kansas. Breed of heavy horse that has black feet (fetlocks?) is a Friesian then? Childhood memories exaggerated, but remember grandparents farm and a horse that was *huge* even among other horses. Gentle giant. Tolerated my sisters decorating his mane & tail with flowers, and we crawled under the horse. Was told later, that wasn’t a good idea if spooked the animal. Probably helped that we were feeding him, and who knows... Maybe animals realize that children mean them no harm. Maybe he even enjoyed the attention! : )

Product question: do they make harness that would attach to wagon or log or something? Family story goes that in his prime, grand-dad would take him to county fairs and things for contests-- pulling logs I guess!

PS: Maybe I’m easily impressed, but pretty amazing work with the pseudo magazine covers. Posing them definitely need ref. photos!

@Hornet3d

Appreciate your honesty, but not sure I understand. Why would learning be controversial? In 14 years with an advertising & marketing agency, I learned to check delicate feelings & 'artistic sensibilities' in at the door. Otherwise... Good way to get fired. Survive in the trenches by developing a deaf ear, and doing what you’re told! Sales dept and clients not always nice and often don’t mince words... Odd that someone would request critique then get angry about it unless it wasn’t what was said but how it was said if that makes any sense.

Still... If no one here has ever requested a critique-- better wait until a moderator or admin weighs in. No use going around looking for trouble if HW takes a dim view to that sort of thing. : )

Thanks for reading!

--Bruce

 

[Hornet3d]

@Rae134


@Hornet3d

Appreciate your honesty, but not sure I understand. Why would learning be controversial? In 14 years with an advertising & marketing agency, I learned to check delicate feelings & 'artistic sensibilities' in at the door. Otherwise... Good way to get fired. Survive in the trenches by developing a deaf ear, and doing what you’re told! Sales dept and clients not always nice and often don’t mince words... Odd that someone would request critique then get angry about it unless it wasn’t what was said but how it was said if that makes any sense.

Still... If no one here has ever requested a critique-- better wait until a moderator or admin weighs in. No use going around looking for trouble if HW takes a dim view to that sort of thing. : )

Thanks for reading!

--Bruce

I don't think you need to wait for someone from admin or a moderator to weighs in as it certainly would not be against any rules assuming the render was within the Terms Of Service. I also I did say that I didn't think many artists ask for critique so clearly some have. A lot of Work In Progress renders are unloaded asking for feedback and a couple of threads are started with the express intent of looking for feedback.

I understand your comment 'Odd that someone would request critique then get angry about it unless it wasn’t what was said but how it was said if that makes any sense' but it does depend on the reasons for seeking feedback. It is not unheard of for someone asking for both positive and negative comments to actually be expecting nothing but positive comments and then getting angry when this is not the case. You are correct that some reaction is caused by how comments are written rather than the advice itself but anyone requesting comments should understand that not every person responding will have English as their first language and therefore a perceived or implied slight may be unjust.

If you got the impression that I was saying learning was controversial then I have not explained myself very well. I have spent a lot of my time over the years on forums such as this and seen many flame wars started from negative comments, where this has happened it is usually the failure of the moderators and posters with hidden agendas that have fuelled the flames. It is for that reason that Hivewire has become my home for the last few years. The people here are extremely knowledgeable and keen to pass on their skills, happily the flames wars do not generally exist although some people have left having felt slighted. Nowhere is perfect so this will happen but I still believe that this is a great forum for growing your talents, I cannot say it is the best as I do not go to any other forum other then a watching brief and occasional post over at the SM forums.

In the last few years I have ventured into dynamic clothing, poser 11 and superfly all of which I would not have succeeded at without the help and support from people here and that is just the main topics. I have had people build props, developed materials and even given me content all for free just to give me a helping hand. I could list many people who have helped but I am sure to miss someone out so I will refrain from such a list. Certain people regularly critique my renders, sometimes in public and sometimes by sitemail where they feel they want to point something out that might be upsetting. In short I am blown away by the helpful nature of the group here who spend a good deal of time helping others and that has to be better than spending such time adding coal to a flame war.

I would encourage you to post your renders and ask for whatever help you require as I am sure you will not be disappointed.

 

[Rae134]

I'm pretty sure the poses I used for the mag covers are from one of the many pose packs from here, even if they are not quite right for what you want they are a good start (Dai's Show Off poses are great as they have separate mane and tail poses that go quite well with the other packs).
Friesians are all black (no other colours except very rarely chestnut) so if your family's horse came in other colours as well then they were not Fri's. I'm not sure on USA horse because I'm an Aussie but Clydesdales (think Budweiser horses) were a popular heavy horse here and while most do have the 4 high whites they do sometimes come with black legs (more common many years ago, and dark legs were more common in their cousin the Shire which is one of the tallest breeds in the world) but there are all kinds of drafts so it could be one of many breeds.

The Gypsy Wagon sold here has a harness for Harry (what we call the HW horse here). I know of someone who works with heavies in real life that is currently making one that looks very promising (but realise not everything that is started is finished, so I really hope this one is!)


I think what Hornet was getting at is that this is a family site (I know one of our members is only 16) so we all try to remember that when we make comments and such. We are generally a polite and well mannered group here (it can get a little heated at times, mainly because we are also passionate and come from many different parts of the world so sometimes things can get a little lost in translation) so we don't often critique but we will/do comment. But if someone askes for help it is often given. If you want a proper critique just say so, and I'm sure you will get it.

Odd that someone would request critique then get angry about it unless it wasn’t what was said but how it was said if that makes any sense

I've noticed on other sites (especially FB) that the people "wanting critiques" are really wanting "OMG this is so …'insert appropriate response like pretty or awesome'." so when they really get is something like: Lighting really needs work, or figure doesn't look grounded, they get really upset. I do realize that there is a right and wrong way to go about it too (some people think critiques need to be unnecessarily harsh). I personally like getting critiques or suggestions so I can get better
I'm a CV-Bee (a moderator, it is under our names) and I don't see a problem if you remember that not everyone like critiques so maybe best not to do so unless specifically asked and please do so in a considerate manner and I hope people will do the same for you.

 

[Hornet3d]

Just for comment this is a render from a few years ago it is my Dawn based character, Hivewire Horse and a slightly tweaked pose from the Girl and Horse Poser set I mentioned earlier.

It would look very different today as this is a Firefly render and I now use Poser 11 and superfly but it maybe give some idea of the combination.

 

[Rae134]

If you have the scene file still Hornet, it would be very interesting to see what you would do with it again I wonder if a new "Before and After" thread would be used, one where we show a favourite scene we did a while ago and show it again with what we have learnt since

 

[Hornet3d]

If you have the scene file still Hornet, it would be very interesting to see what you would do with it again I wonder if a new "Before and After" thread would be used, one where we show a favourite scene we did a while ago and show it again with what we have learnt since

Now that seems like a project and the good news is that I do have the scene file but that is only part of the story in that many of my old scenes do not play ball with Poser 11 or more precisely Poser 11 cannot find a number of the files. It is a long process but not impossible so I will give it a go. One sticking point is that even if I get Poser 11 to find all the files the Dawn texture will be a firefly texture and although Esyskin3 is a good starting point I have made a number of changes to the figure I use now. I have a choice I can either keep the original and replace the materials or start with the updated Dawn figure and delete the original. I guess the first step is to get the scene into Poser 11 and then worry about how I proceed from there.

 

[Satira Capriccio]

Hey Bruce. I'm also a community volunteer (CV) here at HiveWire, and it's perfectly ok to ask for a critique.

Still... If no one here has ever requested a critique-- better wait until a moderator or admin weighs in. No use going around looking for trouble if HW takes a dim view to that sort of thing. : )

I'm sure there are many reasons why most people don't ask for critiques. It could be as simple as not thinking about doing to. There are a wide range of interests and skill levels in the 3D art world, and not everyone, especially, in other forums, thinks about a person's intent or skill level before critiquing. As you found, it can be rather harsh (and even downright nasty) in the business world. Someone doing this as a hobby may not have any experience with that type of a critique, nor are they prepared for it. When critiquing, I think it's important to take into consideration a person's skill, as well as what they are trying to do. Burying them under a critique as if they were a highly skilled serious artist simply isn't helpful for someone who does this just for fun, and isn't yet familiar with the software, content, or even the basis of composition and lighting. They may be coming from a background completely lacking in any art or photography experience. Not everyone who asks for feedback on an image is expecting a full blown Simon type critique. Sometimes, they just want validation.

If someone was really burned after asking for a critique, they might well be hesitant to ever again ask for feedback. Which is a shame, because we learn so much from each other.

If you've only ever been told by friends and family that your art is spectacular, you're not going to be prepared at all for someone ripping your render apart. Some people have a thick enough skin they can roll with that. I'm not one of those people. Criticism cuts me to the core, no matter how well intentioned. Personally, I don't believe there is such a thing as well intentioned criticism. Nor do I believe criticism is helpful in a critique. There is a lot of difference in pointing out all the flaws in a render or suggesting different approaches, camera angles, lighting, and tips on using the software. If there aren't shadows in a render, it could be because they don't know how to enable shadows. Criticizing a render because there aren't any shadows isn't anywhere as helpful as suggesting shadows would make the render look better, and then explaining how to check the lights in their scene to see if shadows are enabled. It could even be that no shadows was intentional ... which would be helpful to know when critiquing.

Anyhooo ... by all means, feel free to post asking for feedback on your renders. The more you tell us about what you're trying to accomplish, the better we'll be able to tailor our feedback to help you.


Now, I'm going to go back to trying to figure out which pose I want to use for Polyhymnia of the four I've finished. What a pain she's been. I even modeled a bunch of grapes and a basket which I may not even use.

 

[Tynkere]

@Rae134

Ah. Had wondered about “Harry.” ; )

Horse we visited every summer was all black, but assume horses can be ‘mutts’ too? I doubt my grandparents would’ve been able to afford a purebred or pedigree horse-- whatever the correct term is. : )

I can see why me seeking critique might be worrisome. Hadn’t thought about FB since not on social media. Happens at DAZ every once in a while. I’ll make up an example.

“Here’s my Sci-Fi render. Comments welcome!”

“Nice start, but cropping his hand off at wrist might be distracting. Can you move the camera over a little? Show what he is working on?”

“It’s fantasy! I didn’t expect the inquisition. See ya! Bye.”

Can’t please everyone I guess, but now I understand why asking for help/critique might be delicate subject. : )

@Hornet3d
Hadn’t thought about English as second language. Good point. Controversial probably poor word choice. Divisive maybe?

A forum of course lacks eye contact, voice, body language-- so many ways we communicate non-verbally.

As for flame wars. Ha! Every site has them I suppose. At DAZ, one poor guy made mistake of asking, “Is 3DL on the way out? I notice more and more products at the store are IRay only.”

That turned into a 20 page geek war: 3DL vs IRay!

PS: Got HW horse, couple of breeds, tack & harness, and even some lizards. That should keep me busy!

PSS: Nice render that gives me an idea of what fur & mane might look like since haven’t had time to install. : ) Hard part might be finding wardrobe since DAZ has pretty much gone to d-force only. Hopefully I can work clothes or something at Rendo.


@Satira Capriccio

Could not have said that better if you gave me a week to compose it! Agree with everything you said. If I could ‘like’ that more than once, I would. Apologies if interrupted your workflow.

So I guess it’s topic time for self improvement!

Thanks, all of you, for your replies!

--Bruce

 

[Satira Capriccio]

Thanks Bruce.

No, you didn't interrupt my workflow. I needed the break! I was able to decide on a pose for Polyhymnia, made a few tweaks, and rendered the thumbnails for it and the basket of grapes. Now, I just need to put together a few material sets for the clothing in Gaia's Gifts, and it should be about time to send to beta testing.

 

[Miss B]

Just saw your post asking for critique Bruce, and am glad you decided to do so. This forum isn't like most of the other forums, so folks who have constructive comments to make, will make them in a civil manner, or they'll hear from Rae, Satira or myself about being nice to their fellow forum members. I may have some comments for you on the render you posted, but I'm going to think about it for a while, and may not post them until tomorrow.

Oh and as far as interrupting Satira's workflow, she puts a lot of work into her sets, and I can't imagine anyone working nonstop on those kinds of projects without taking a break every now and then. I know I certainly couldn't.

 

[Rae134]

I didn't see an image posted by Bruce, Miss B (I posted a screenshot and Hornet posted and image tho).

haha the Lizards are cute too Bruce and yes that'll keep you busy

And going back to your first post about textures, the following are all using the same lights and the default Harry shape.
The first lot are the breed textures and various texture packs by CWRW.
Top Row: Shetland (x2), Friesian, Thoroughbred (x2), Draft, Default Base (x3), Mustang (x2), QuarterHorse (x3), Arab and Unicorn.
Middle Row: Cream Draft, Belgian, Gypsy Vanner, Shire, Percheron (these are from pack 1, the rest of the line are from pack 2), Blue Roan (x3), Bay Roan (x3), Red Dunskin, Sorrel Pinto (x2)
Bottom Row: Liver Chestnut (x2), Grulla Dun (x2), Grulla Grey (x2), Dapple Grey, Whisper Gold, Whisper Silver and Whisper Flower.

And these are some from my coats (there are several more options in each pack, I just put together the main ones, for example in Kitty Ponies 1 which has the Tiger and Lion coats, the Tiger has this option, a darker orange, white, grey, black and golden tabby).
Tiger (x6), Lion (x9) (these 2 are from KP 1, the next 2 are from KP 2), Leopard (x5), Clouded Leopard (x5), BeJeweled 01 Glossed (x5), BJ 02 (x5) (these textures are from the BeJeweled Set 1, the next 2 are from BeJeweled Set 2), BJ 03 Sparkled (x5) and 04 Sparkled (x5)

There are a few more texture packs out there. And a few pose sets as well.

Edited to Add: Here are all the current horse shapes for your comparison. Some at a distance you probably wouldn't notice a change much, so unless you really wanted a particular texture, then ones with the most different to start out with would be the Foal, Shetland, Arab, Draft and Beast, you could get the rest as you go along (whisper and the unicorn are missing their horns ). I've tried to put them in order of height, please note Beast has been shrunk 75% because he is a huge fantasy well, beast horse LOL

Top Row: Whisper, Foal, Shetland, Mustang, Unicorn, Base Harry.
Middle Row: Arabian, Friesian, QuarterHorse, Thoroughbred, Draft, Beast.
Bottom Row: I just wanted to show you that the breed morphs do cross well in most cases, shown here is Shetland at 100%, next is "50% Shetland with 50% Arab", and then 100% Arabian.

 

[Miss B]

I didn't see an image posted by Bruce, Miss B (I posted a screenshot and Hornet posted and image tho).

It's in a new thread Bruce started --> Always Room For Improvement - How Can I make This Better

 

[Rae134]

Thanks Miss B, I did find it hahaha

 

[Hornet3d]

If you have the scene file still Hornet, it would be very interesting to see what you would do with it again I wonder if a new "Before and After" thread would be used, one where we show a favourite scene we did a while ago and show it again with what we have learnt since

Rerendered in superfly but rather than derail this thread further I have posted it in the 'I just wanted to post and image' thread

 

[Tynkere]

@Rae134

Thanks for the comparison shots. Saved and will be copying & pasting notes into PDF to print out. Keep all that kind of thing in a 3-ring binder. Am probably going to need an extra section for horses!

Color looks like the "Friesian" but more bulk? Stout maybe? Wasn't just that he was tall-- to an eight year old, he was just plain big! From what I remember, looks pretty close to "beast" (sway to his back?) but that one has been scaled down? A 32 hand horse or something? : 0 !

@Miss B

Thanks. Look forward to your comments there!

@Hornet3d

Will have to check it out there. Wouldn't think it's derailing though as long as about horses. Who knows... If this shows up in a search might be helpful to others. : )

 

[Rae134]

Beasts shape to me looks like a Percheron which are pretty big drafts (but they don't really have feathers like most draft breeds). Friesians were built for harness and were heavier than todays Fri's (called Baroque if you wanted to look them up), they've been breeding the finer tho because a lot of people are starting to use them for Dressage. I think Perch's would have been more common than Fri's around your grandparents time so if he didn't have feathers that would my guess (unless he looked bigger to an 8 year)

A Percheron mare from Australia holds a record of pulling 1500kg over 4 meters. Another famous Percheron horse is Dr Le Gear, he reached a height of 2.13m and was the largest horse on earth when he was alive.

Haha yep Beast is BIG. I have somewhere in either the horse thread or Ruckus thread where I have default Harry with Beast and he kinda makes harry look the size of the Shetland LOL

 

[Miss B]

Geeze, how does one get on to a Beast like that to ride him? I'd probably need a step ladder at least.